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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old June 19 2013, 02:20 AM   #16
Sran
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

R. Star wrote: View Post
Because a group of changelings working a menial 9-5 job in a ketracel white factory would be beneath them when they can be doing important things like oozing out.
So being wiped out by their own soliders is preferable to that? I can't believe you'd even suggest such a thing.

--Sran
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Old June 19 2013, 02:22 AM   #17
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

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Exactly, the Founders are nothing if not elitist.
I don't think elitist is the right word. In any event, the Founders clearly don't trust solids. They also believe it's their duty to impose their order on the galaxy. I refuse to believe they'd give up the control that's so important to them solely out of convenience. The Changelings are not a group of beings who take the easy way out.

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Old June 19 2013, 02:26 AM   #18
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

Sran wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Because a group of changelings working a menial 9-5 job in a ketracel white factory would be beneath them when they can be doing important things like oozing out.
So being wiped out by their own soliders is preferable to that? I can't believe you'd even suggest such a thing.

--Sran
Your belief seems to be rather constrained. They have a vast interplanetary empire that dwarfs the Federation. There are other safeguards than for the ruling class to work in the factories themselves. Have secret factories with Vorta in them. Vorta are equipped with suicide implants. A self destruct just in case rogue Jem'Hadar both find and attack the factory isn't out of the question.

Or have loyal client races manufacture the individual components, then bring them to a classified area for the yet another race to assemble the drug. All of them being in the dark. The Founders trust them enough to distribute the drug after all. Unless you think a Founder individually hands out each tube to each soldier, which we've seen isn't true. We've seen that the client races, such as the Karemma, are trusted with manufacture of weapons after all.

The Founders are elitist(yes elitist is the most polite word for a group of people who believe in their racial superiority and think that everything related to the solids is beneath them) jerks, but they're not stupid. That's why they have the genetic coding -and- the white. Redundancy. I'm sure they applied the same concept to the varying degrees to the means in which they employ that control.
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Old June 19 2013, 02:28 AM   #19
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

Sran wrote: View Post
SpHeRe31459 wrote: View Post
Exactly, the Founders are nothing if not elitist.
I don't think elitist is the right word. In any event, the Founders clearly don't trust solids. They also believe it's their duty to impose their order on the galaxy. I refuse to believe they'd give up the control that's so important to them solely out of convenience. The Changelings are not a group of beings who take the easy way out.

--Sran
I see what your saying. But as a counterpoint, consider that in the Gamma Quadrant they do have (their idea of) order. They pretty much own everything there. Most planets are subjects of The Dominion. They could have very little reservation with letting some poor beat-down subjugated race produce White for them there.

I could see the Founders getting a sense of smug amusement to see solids manufacturing a substance which they use to control other solids.

The problem of course would be the Alpha Quadrant production, since they have no such whipped races there, so as you said their last resort was to deal with the shady Son'a.

EDIT: I see as I was typing this R. Star made many of the same points, and a bit better than I did too
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Old June 19 2013, 02:31 AM   #20
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

^Fair enough. I still wouldn't use a word like elitist. Who cares about being polite? The Founders are xenophobic, totalitarian megaolmaniacs. Calling them elitist when they're far worse than that is side-stepping the issue.

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Old June 19 2013, 02:37 AM   #21
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

Sran wrote: View Post
^Fair enough. I still wouldn't use a word like elitist. Who cares about being polite? The Founders are xenophobic, totalitarian megaolmaniacs. Calling them elitist when they're far worse than that is side-stepping the issue.

--Sran
Sidestepping what? Like changing the subject to one over labels?
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Old June 19 2013, 02:41 AM   #22
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

R. Star wrote: View Post
Sidestepping what? Like changing the subject to one over labels?
I wasn't changing the subject. I was conceding the point about the the production of ketracel white. You were right, and I was wrong. I'm not conceding the point about calling the Founders elitist. It doesn't fit. Not precisely.

--Sran
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Old June 19 2013, 02:44 AM   #23
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

Sran wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Sidestepping what? Like changing the subject to one over labels?
I wasn't changing the subject. I was conceding the point about the the production of ketracel white. You were right, and I was wrong. I'm not conceding the point about calling the Founders elitist. It doesn't fit. Not precisely.

--Sran
Fair enough. I never was one to quibble too much on the labels, and we can agree that whatever appellation you want to put on our lovable Founders they're not good people.

You can call someone a murderer without describing in great detail just exactly how they do it and the sick pleasure they take in it after all.
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Old June 19 2013, 08:50 AM   #24
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

I don't think A or B would have happened. The Vorta run the Dominion with only very limited influence of the Founders. Look at Weyoun he seemed to handle the war with very little input from the Female Changeling. She seemed fine to let him make decisions and only occasionally got involved. The Founders are the head of the Dominion, but they seem to be a mostly absent one preferring to hide on their secret world. So I question whether if Tain succeeded if it would have any real impact.

The likely outcome would be the upper echelon of Vorta would either conceal the attack. The Jem'Hadar and other Vorta wouldn't believe anything the AQ powers say or any evidence they provide. As someone stated the attack wouldn't kill all the Founders, just those in the Link at the time. A successful attack would result in the few survivors probably taking more extreme actions, particularly against the Cardassians and Romulans. The war that would still come might be more concerned with extermination rather than control.
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Old June 19 2013, 01:20 PM   #25
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Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

Well for all his talk of being a shadowmaster, Tain was rather hamfisted at times. He fully announced his plans to the governments of Cardassia and Romulus(that the Federation got wind of very quick) even before he attacked. If he was successful I'd see a similar annoucement saying how badass he was for committing genocide.

Would've been way more interesting if he hadn't announced anything, just flew his fleet through the wormhole, blasted the Founders and didn't declare victory just leaving the Dominion to wonder -who- did it. Of course, I'm sure even the Dominion can technobabble CSI and find there were Romulan/Cardassian weapon signatures there.

If Tain was really clever, he'd do a false flag operation. If he's such a badass spymaster that just with the intelligence branch he can acquire the materials, facilities and knowledge to secretly manufacture a fleet of warships, it's not that much larger of a leap to acquire some Federation or Klingon ships. The Romulans nearly did this in Unification(where we see an entire junkyard or derelict Federation ships) and heck a bunch of Ferengi oafs who were beaten by kids got some Bird of Preys. If he did that not only would he eliminate the Dominion as a threat, but any retaliation would be at his other rivals.
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