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Old June 19 2013, 03:31 AM   #16
-Brett-
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Just curious what your opinion is over the course of the franchise. We've got Worf, obviously, but the majority of Klingons we meet are pretty much the embodiment of dishonorable. Less Miyamoto Musashi and more Genghis Khan crossed with Hell's Angels.

Is the whole thing just a con?
Con implies some intentional deception. I don't think that's the case. I think it's more likely massive self delusion. But yes, Klingon honor is basically bullshit.
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Old June 19 2013, 05:09 AM   #17
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
-Klingons are honorable

-Humans have evolved beyond greed or want

-Vulcans cannot lie


Common lies of the Trekverse. All probably from 24th century travel brochures!
I bet the Ferengi read that and immediately booked passage to Vulcan. They would have hated it there, all that heat and sand, and they would have soon learned that "cannot lie" does not mean what they hoped it meant.
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Old June 19 2013, 05:19 AM   #18
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

I think there's wide variance from Klingon to Klingon. Some are super honorable (Worf, Martok, some of the dudes on Boreth), some are buttholes (Gowron, Duras fam), and most are probably somewhere in-between.
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Old June 19 2013, 05:36 AM   #19
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

I'd like to see the OP tell a Klingon that honour is a bunch of hooey..
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Old June 19 2013, 06:03 AM   #20
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
I think there's wide variance from Klingon to Klingon. Some are super honorable (Worf, Martok, some of the dudes on Boreth), some are buttholes (Gowron, Duras fam), and most are probably somewhere in-between.
And just like real-life, it's always the buttholes who end up running the show.

I could totally see a Klingon Joe Sixpack sitting down at his TV with a beer during election time trying to watch the game, only to have to sit through Gowron's latest political pitch ten times in every commercial break, slurring his opponent as being "without honor"

Joe Sixpack: "ENOUGH with the honor and ritual already!"
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Old June 20 2013, 02:35 AM   #21
Charles Phipps
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

teacake wrote: View Post
I'd like to see the OP tell a Klingon that honour is a bunch of hooey..
Depends if I'm about to blow up his spaceship or not.
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Old June 20 2013, 04:39 AM   #22
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

But he still wins since it's automatically a good day to die if you kill him.
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Old June 20 2013, 04:46 AM   #23
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

Honor is to klingons as family values are to republicans.
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Old June 20 2013, 05:05 AM   #24
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

And what malarkey is to the rest of us.
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Old June 20 2013, 07:24 PM   #25
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

stj wrote: View Post
From the bits and pieces of TNG I've seen Worf began as an allegorical figure for US/Western militarism. As such, he wasn't dishonorable but he wasn't heroic. On Voyager, Torres and the dreadlock Klingons aka Kazons are symbolically Black people. This is why practically every Torres episode is gruesome. The seventh season episode where she tries to create a blonde blue-eyed child by genetic engineering is particularly problematic. Treating Black people as literally Alien, even symbolically, is incredibly wrongheaded. Ron D. Moore, in his quasi-psychotic rant about Voyager, told of being invited to do something with Torres but naturally, given his skill level, passed.
I always thought of Klingons to resemble feudal Japan. Even their armor and weapons were of east Asian design. Torres just likes to blame her Klingon side for her faults and anger issue.
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Old June 21 2013, 01:20 AM   #26
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

Klingon honour is just an example of a society which doesn't live up to the morals and values it claims to uphold. History is filled with similar examples. If anything, it's realistic.
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Old June 21 2013, 02:02 AM   #27
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

R. Star wrote: View Post
I think the only reason Worf was the way he was, is that because he grew up away from any Klingons.
Lance wrote: View Post
I have sometimes wondered if Worf isn't the best representative of the Klingons, so much as he is representative of what they should be. As a Klingon who grew up "off world" he holds himself to a much higher ideal than those back on Qu'onos.
So Worf is the Superman of the Trek universe ?
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Old June 21 2013, 02:30 AM   #28
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

A true Klingon rejoices at the death of his enemies, old, young, armed, unarmed. All that matter is the victory.
-Ch'Pok (While framing Worf)

I do believe Klingons take the idea of honor sincerely, but they define it radically different than humans do. Winning, by whatever means, is honorable. Losing is not. You can't really compare Klingon honor to human ethics.
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Old June 21 2013, 02:45 AM   #29
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
I do believe Klingons take the idea of honor sincerely, but they define it radically different than humans do. Winning, by whatever means, is honorable. Losing is not. You can't really compare Klingon honor to human ethics.
Not sure I agree with this. I think they take the idea of honor seriously but apply it poorly in their everyday lives. Klingon honor seems to change depending on who's invoking it to justify a particular action.

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Old June 21 2013, 03:03 AM   #30
Lance
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

Belz... wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
I think the only reason Worf was the way he was, is that because he grew up away from any Klingons.
Lance wrote: View Post
I have sometimes wondered if Worf isn't the best representative of the Klingons, so much as he is representative of what they should be. As a Klingon who grew up "off world" he holds himself to a much higher ideal than those back on Qu'onos.
So Worf is the Superman of the Trek universe ?
I hadn't really thought about it that way. But yeah, it's not an unfair comparison. More accurately, I suppose, his upbringing has similarities to that of Clark Kent.

Worf is a pariah in both societies really. But more so the Klingons, ironically enough.
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