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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old June 17 2013, 06:52 PM   #31
Lynx
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

Because of fear!

"There was a woman who lived on a spaceship
nobody knew her or knew about her fate
but mothers would say to their children, Beware of Captain Kate.

Kate would sing with her crew in the morning
laugh with the engines in the cold end of night
but people who watched their TV:s, said she's not quite right.

Kate had it made, she was living the life among the stars
but her ship was her home among those stars and the crew were her friends
she was free

So here was a wise one who loved all the haters
she loved them so much that their hate turned to fear
and shaking in front of their TV:s the loved ones would hear

Dai de dai de dee dai dai dai dai dai dai da, dai de dai de dee dai dai dai dai dai daa

Dai de dai de dee dai dai dai dai dai dai dai dai daa"


"Captain Kate"

Original song: "Mad John" by The Small Faces

Written by: Steve Marriott and Ronnie Lane

Original lyrics slightly altered by: Lynx
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Old June 17 2013, 06:55 PM   #32
teya
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

Brit wrote: View Post
A lot of the Janeway hate is rooted in misogyny too. As for being "cult like", well that phrase is in itself an attempt to discount the fact that there are real Janeway fans, in other words it's just another way to say Janeway fans are crazy. I have always said everyone has the right to dislike the character for what ever reason, what you don't have, is the right to degrade the fans that do like her.
I liked Janeway well-enough until I started hearing from her fans that if you don't adore her, then you're a misogynist.

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot slur people who disagree with you and then demand respect for your own position.
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Old June 17 2013, 07:27 PM   #33
R. Star
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

The only thing I meant by saying -almost- cult like is there is a high level of devotion to the character by her fans that there is a tendency for them not only like her but feel compelled to defend her ardently... but attack anyone who doesn't take their position. Add misogyny to the list of that one.
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Old June 17 2013, 07:41 PM   #34
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

It was way overdue that Trek had a female Captain as a lead character. I was excited when Voyager was announced - I just found it so disappointing in reality, and Janeway was a big part of that.

DD9 spoiled me for later Trek shows...
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Old June 17 2013, 10:02 PM   #35
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

teya wrote: View Post
I liked Janeway well-enough until I started hearing from her fans that if you don't adore her, then you're a misogynist.

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot slur people who disagree with you and then demand respect for your own position.
QFT.

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Old June 17 2013, 11:26 PM   #36
BruntFCA
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

LOKAI of CHERON wrote: View Post
Why do fans find it so difficult to reconcile Janeway's so called "inconsistencies" as no more than an aspect of her overall personality? Heck, I know people who are just as, if not excessively more, "inconsistent" - that's just part of the human equation IMHO.

In fact, I'd go as far as saying this factor of her character makes her more human, more believable, than many of Trek's "mono-beat" personality types.
For me it's because Janeway wasn't intentionally written that way, her inconsistency wasn't a flaw in the character but a flaw in the writing.I think that if the character had been written to be inconsistent on purpose with the writers aware of it then it could have been extremely interesting but its obvious that it was unintentional. Janeway was always written from the POV of being right and nobody ever called her out on her BS.

In one episode Janeway makes a deal with the Borg and then in another episode "I don't compromise with BORG", an entire episode is made about Janeway respecting a planets government and not using the black market only for the next season to have an episode that starts with the Janeway TRYING TO BUY FROM THE BLACK MARKET!!!

The biggest WTF is Unforgettable which on the surface is just an ironically forgettable episode but if you actually think about the the time line given in the episode it proves that the writers were either incompetent or they just didn't care. From what we see and what we are told the series of events are as follows-

Alien comes aboard VOY and seeks asylum from oppressive government but is turned down by Janeway and turned over to oppressive government.

Then

Another alien comes aboard VOY and seeks asylum from the same oppressive government and this time Janeway decides to grant it.

You have literally the SAME EXACT SITUATION in the SAME EXACT EPISODE and yet Janeway makes two completely different decisions and neither the characters or the writers even notice.

Kate Mulgrew was absolutely brilliant in the role and I can't imagine anyone else man or woman as the captain of Voyager, I just think that it's a damn shame that she wasn't given the the quality of writing to work with that Stewart and Brooks got.
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Old June 18 2013, 12:44 AM   #37
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

Where other people see inconsistency I see flexibility. Of course she said "I don't compromise with Borg", it was a great fuck you I'm not your bitch line. Doesn't mean she won't use the Borg via deals if it's to her advantage.
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Old June 18 2013, 12:53 AM   #38
Sran
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

teacake wrote: View Post
Where other people see inconsistency I see flexibility. Of course she said "I don't compromise with Borg", it was a great fuck you I'm not your bitch line. Doesn't mean she won't use the Borg via deals if it's to her advantage.
Any deal made with the Borg is a type of compromise, so that statement doesn't make sense.

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Old June 18 2013, 12:59 AM   #39
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

As I said it wasn't a legal document, it was an attitude in your face statement.

When Picard was crapping on about the line must be drawn here! this far! no further! it's a speech, it's about attitude. He has no control over whether a gazillion Borg vessels suddenly appear and do make him fall back again, despite the speech. The speech is a chest thumping moment, the same as saying in a gritty voice, "I don't compromise.."
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Old June 18 2013, 01:04 AM   #40
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

^Chest-thumping means nothing unless one is prepared to back it up. Saying "fuck you" before getting your ass kicked isn't something to be lauded for.

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Old June 18 2013, 02:04 AM   #41
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

I think you are missing the point. All Captains say stuff to intimidate an enemy or inspire their crew.
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Old June 18 2013, 02:10 AM   #42
Sran
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

teacake wrote: View Post
I think you are missing the point. All Captains say stuff to intimidate an enemy or inspire their crew.
That's precisely my point. Intimidation and inspiration mean nothing unless a commanding officer can back up his or her words. Saying "we're gonna' kick their asses" means nothing unless it actually happens. Any outcome less than that and morale goes down the drain.

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Old June 18 2013, 02:25 AM   #43
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

Picard's speech would have meant something to his crew even if they had to fall back and were over run by Borg. They would have known their leader gave his very best.
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Old June 18 2013, 02:29 AM   #44
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

teacake wrote: View Post
Picard's speech would have meant something to his crew even if they had to fall back and were over run by Borg. They would have known their leader gave his very best.
No, it would not have. They'd have thought him a fool, and rightfully so.

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Old June 18 2013, 02:33 AM   #45
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Re: Why is Janeway hated so much?

How about this speech?



Chest-thumping of a sort. I love how Patrick Stewart plays this. Very inspiring, but you can see that Picard knows he's only got minutes to live. He's not sure his sacrifice will mean something, but he's got to inspire his crew.

Link is here: http://youtu.be/52KFUdU1jaQ?t=8m22s
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