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Old June 16 2013, 07:14 PM   #16
Rarewolf
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

Speaking of Cloaks, why did the Defiant have a Romulan cloaking device, rather than Klingon?
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Old June 16 2013, 09:29 PM   #17
Sran
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

Rarewolf wrote: View Post
Speaking of Cloaks, why did the Defiant have a Romulan cloaking device, rather than Klingon?
Not entirely clear, but we know that the Federation agreed to provide the Romulans with intelligence reports on the Dominion in exchange for using the device. It may be that the Romulans reached out to Starfleet first wanting information, and Starfleet asked for the cloak in return.

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Old June 17 2013, 02:42 AM   #18
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

Rarewolf wrote: View Post
Speaking of Cloaks, why did the Defiant have a Romulan cloaking device, rather than Klingon?
Romulans were the original inventors of the cloaking device (at least according to canon at the time), so their version was probably superior.
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Old June 17 2013, 02:49 AM   #19
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

-Brett- wrote: View Post
Romulans were the original inventors of the cloaking device (at least according to canon at the time), so their version was probably superior.
That's correct, although there's no way to know if they still had that advantage by 2371. Their alliance with the Klingons was formed in large part because the Klingons wanted their cloaking technology, and they wanted the Klingons superior weapons.

By the twenty fourth century, Romulan warbirds were comparable with Federation ships in terms of their weapons, speed, and maneuverability. It's hard to know if the Klingons made similar strides in technology given the economic problems brought on by Praxis' explosion and changes in their military structure to pursue peace with Starfleet. Their ships always seemed to be upgrades of existing technology rather than completely new systems, at least until the Negh'Var class was introduced.

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Old June 17 2013, 04:50 AM   #20
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

Rarewolf wrote: View Post
Speaking of Cloaks, why did the Defiant have a Romulan cloaking device, rather than Klingon?
The Treaty of Algeron, which established among other things the reinforcement and redefinition of the Romulan Neutral Zone, also had provisions that prevented the Federation from pursuing cloaking technology themselves.

If Starfleet now wanted to use a cloak, they'd have to consult and deal with the Romulans, even if they wanted to use someone else's cloaking device, so it's probably just easier to use a Romulan one since conditions would obviously be applied either way.
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Old June 17 2013, 09:19 AM   #21
TheSubCommander
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

Captain_Amasov wrote: View Post
Rarewolf wrote: View Post
Speaking of Cloaks, why did the Defiant have a Romulan cloaking device, rather than Klingon?
The Treaty of Algeron, which established among other things the reinforcement and redefinition of the Romulan Neutral Zone, also had provisions that prevented the Federation from pursuing cloaking technology themselves.

If Starfleet now wanted to use a cloak, they'd have to consult and deal with the Romulans, even if they wanted to use someone else's cloaking device, so it's probably just easier to use a Romulan one since conditions would obviously be applied either way.

This and the fact that if the Defiant used a Klingon Cloak, the Romulans would surely demand to be there to observe its use. Given that the Romulans and Klingons were enemies by that point, and the fact that Klingon cloaking technology may have diverged since the Klingons and Romulans became enemies, maybe the Klingons refused to allow a Klingon cloak to be observed by a Romulan for security reasons.
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Old June 18 2013, 06:31 PM   #22
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

Indeed. And probably for good reason, as we saw in TNG "Unification" that a Klingon cloak allowed our heroes to penetrate to the very heart of the Romulan Star Empire and to linger there for several days unobserved!

The jury is still out on who out of the usual suspects invented invisibility first, and when. Sure, it seems to come as news to our TOS heroes when the Romulans are first not-seen using it, but subsequently it sounds like invisibility is mundane and commonplace - and then comes ENT and shows it mundane and commonplace a century before the "introductory" TOS episode, in the hands of a variety of aliens and subsequently falling in the hands of both the Earthlings and the Klingons.

Really, TOS "Balance of Terror" is the one hiccup in otherwise acceptable continuity, the piece that never fit the puzzle. Ships that appear out of nowhere and then disappear again are not news to our heroes in that episode - they witnessed such a thing happening back in "Charlie X" already.

Certainly Romulans and Klingons go neck to neck in cloaking prowess in the TNG era adventures, so it would stand to reason that they would hesitate to have their ships maintained at a base frequented by the opposition... But possibly neither the Klingons nor the Romulans had any choice, as the former had lost their forward bases to the Dominion in the early stages of the war already, and the latter never appeared to have had any.

Sure, TNG "Birthright" suggests that Romulan space is not too far from DS9, but we never hear any exact figures. And there's nothing explicit to indicate that Romulus and Bajor/Cardassia would be border neighbors or anything. Indeed, when the Dominion starts using Romulan space for attacks against the Federation-Klingon alliance, this is considered something of a "backstabbing" maneuver, and not just figuratively...

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Old June 20 2013, 04:00 PM   #23
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

It could even be that despite the fact they were fighting on the same side, by nature the Romulans are a elusive and secretive race and although engaging in battle side by side with former foes, they may still want to try to keep their exact fleet figures under wraps, as to not expose and compromise their military strength post war. Giving them the illusion of being on a stronger footing than they may well be when discussing the spoils of war.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:54 AM   #24
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

Rarewolf wrote: View Post
Speaking of Cloaks, why did the Defiant have a Romulan cloaking device, rather than Klingon?
I think the reason is more easily explain diplomatically then technologically.

To the best of my knowledge, we never get any true insight into who has a better cloak (Romulans or Klingons) though I think we could probably make a good argument for Romulans having a better cloak considering they are more interested in technological advancement then Klingons.

However, the explanation, IMHO can be found in the TNG episodes: "The Pegasus". Based on that episode, the Treaty of Algeron expressly forbids the federation from developing or having cloaking technology and therefor they need permission from the Romula Empire to use it. In order to properly oversee that they aren't misusing it, doesn't it make the most sense for the Romulans to give them a cloak?

As for "Why no Romulan Ships?" I think Dub's answer would be the one used, but frankly, I think the big explanation would frankly have been budget.

Let's be honest, budget not being a concerned, we'd expect to see about a dozen ships around the station at any time, not one or two.
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Old June 30 2013, 10:59 PM   #25
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

To get back on topic... I think it was indirectly explained. The Romulans were given a hospital base on one of Bajor's moon's. Since DS9 is at the mouth of the wormhole, we don't see Romulan ships as often because they are likely stationed near their hospital base. Instead of shore leave on the station, they can go to the planet. If a ship needs to be docked for repairs, then that ship goes to the station. It wasn't clear if the base was removed or the weapons were removed after the their blockade.

I also would not be surprised if the Romulans were not around DS9 as much because they were fighting a different front. Since their systems were vulnerable to Breen weapons, and the Klingons were picking up a lot of slack for both the Federation and the Romulans, it would make sense that the Romulans would take defensive positions.

If the Romulans were stationed near a Federation starbase, I assume Starbase 375 would be the best option. It's near the front lines, and Admiral Ross has an amicable relationship with the Romulans. Their cloaking technology also allows them to hide near the boarder, and serve as backup should the need arise.
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Old June 30 2013, 11:57 PM   #26
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

What did the Federation get out of the Treaty of Algeron? They ceded a massive tactical advantage to the Romulans, so it must have been worth their while. Unless the Romulans were negotiating from a position of great strength, and could virtually dictate terms...
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Old July 1 2013, 12:07 AM   #27
Sran
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

Tomalak wrote: View Post
What did the Federation get out of the Treaty of Algeron? They ceded a massive tactical advantage to the Romulans, so it must have been worth their while. Unless the Romulans were negotiating from a position of great strength, and could virtually dictate terms...
It's not clear from cannon. The Treaty of Algeron was signed after the Tomed Incident of 2311. There are a couple of novels about the events surrounding the Tomed Incident, but nothing's ever talked about on screen. What's known from episodes like "The Pegasus" is that the treaty has helped maintain a fragile peace between the Federation and the Romulans for several decades.

You might be onto something in saying that the Romulans had all the power in the negotiations. Depending on what happened, maybe the Federation had no choice but to allow the Romulans to keep their cloaking technology and abide by whatever terms were laid out for them, no matter how unfair or lopsided they might have been.

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Old July 1 2013, 10:54 AM   #28
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

Rarewolf wrote: View Post
Speaking of Cloaks, why did the Defiant have a Romulan cloaking device, rather than Klingon?
The Romulans were the original inventors of the cloaking device. Besides they have greater finese and skill that your typical Klingon brute (and we got to see Martha Hackett in another too-short Trek role).

The one thing that bothered me with Romulan ships was that we only ever saw the D'deridex-Class. We saw several Starfleet, three Klingon, three Cardassian, and three Dominion classes engaged in fighting, but only one Romulan (which never seemed to fair well in the battles either).
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Old July 1 2013, 10:57 AM   #29
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

I thought it was a bit daft that Voyager never bothered to develop a cloak, which would have been really useful sneaking through the Delta Quadrant. It's not as if the Romulans would find out. The suggestion must be that the Federation really don't have much experience at all. They might know the basic theory, and have a few captured examples, but haven't been able to make them work in practice due to the treaty. The Pegasus attempt was clearly very, very secret.
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Old July 1 2013, 11:05 AM   #30
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Re: Why No Romulan Ships?

They may be 70,000 light-years from home, but its still illegal. They could have developed a phasing device, passed through planets and ships and phaser beams without taking any damage--plus a straight line is the shortest distance between two points
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