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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 1 2013, 11:50 PM   #1
xvicente
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Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

As I read about one of my favorite characters, Saavik, I noticed how she was abandoned by the writers in IV.

Then I noticed Star Trek was almost always a bit formulaic (not necessarily a bad thing) and it wouldn't be different with the babes. In this case the rule seems to be "one babe: no more, no less". Like the Sith, but better-looking. See the count:

Star Trek I - Ilia (Uhura, Chapel and Rand are there but dont do almost nothing)
Star Trek II - Saavik
Star Trek III - Saavik (better leave Uhura on Earth during the entire adventure)
ST IV - Gillian (Saavik, you dont get to go to century XX because there's a ST Babe there already, so bye bye -- writers can't and won't even be bothered to tell if you're preg or not)
ST V - mess of script don't follow the rules but at least includes wonderful muscles (and a 3-titted alien? wtf?)
ST VI - Saavik (spelled different because of reasons)

In the original episodes this happened too, of course. That's why Rand lost her job.

disclaimer - Star Trek is sexist but was made in other times. The word "babe" is used in this context
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Last edited by xvicente; July 1 2013 at 11:59 PM. Reason: babes
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Old July 2 2013, 01:50 AM   #2
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Re: Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

There is something else that kinda bothers me in the later Trek, when there should be way less sexism. The only Star Trek to pass the Bechdel Test is Insurrection because of the fact Troi and Crusher spend a minute discussing their boobs.

Going further on "babes" in Star Trek takes me to what annoyed me about Voyager and then Enterprise. They hired models instead of actresses to play Seven and T'Pol. Both women wore too-tight, skin-tight bodysuits instead of proper costumes. The producers seriously want me to believe that Seven and T'Pol would flaunt their female forms like that and wear heels? It doesn't fit their characters.

Especially with T'Pol. She should have been in a uniform once she left the High Command. Instead they sewed a mission patch on an outfit that would split open at the bust/butt if she did a trunk twist or bent over.

By that logic, Troi would have just stopped wearing tops when Jelllico complained about her lack of uniform in TNG.

Those outfits were just to put horny male (and some female) butts into seats to jack up the ratings. That is the worst kind of pandering and it angers me.
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Old July 2 2013, 04:16 PM   #3
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Re: Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
Going further on "babes" in Star Trek takes me to what annoyed me about Voyager and then Enterprise. They hired models instead of actresses to play Seven and T'Pol. Both women wore too-tight, skin-tight bodysuits instead of proper costumes. The producers seriously want me to believe that Seven and T'Pol would flaunt their female forms like that and wear heels? It doesn't fit their characters.
Thank you!

For Seven I get that as a Borg she is for function above all else, but female Starfleeters get by in uniforms that have a little bag to them without hinderance, she should have been put in one as her role onboard the ship grew. As for T'Pol, it's funny that we never saw any of the male Vulcan High Command officers in the same style of skin-tight uniform--they all wore looser uniforms.

If they're going to make that the Vulcan uniform, then get every damn Vulcan into one of them! Its that kind of thing that bugs me, either have it for all or for none.

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
Especially with T'Pol. She should have been in a uniform once she left the High Command. Instead they sewed a mission patch on an outfit that would split open at the bust/butt if she did a trunk twist or bent over.
Pretty much every woman in a Starfleet uniform wears it well, and the couple of times T'Pol was in one during ENT she suited it. As an officer in Starfleet she should have been in uniform!

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
By that logic, Troi would have just stopped wearing tops when Jelllico complained about her lack of uniform in TNG.
Troi I can kinda let off, as her role sees her dealing as much with civvies as it does crewmen, but either way her patients might not like speaking to someone in uniform with rank pips on display. But still, she looked better in her uniform than any of her jumpsuits.

The only "sexy smart woman" Trek has gotten right has been Jadzia Dax. Terry Farrell was stunning and in uniform pretty much the entire time (ok she was in a swim suit a couple of times, but only when she was off duty).

Anyways, going back to the OP. There does definately seem to be a cap on prominent female characters in the TOS films, and even then two and a half were just love interests (Saavik in TSFS was only really Spock's sex-buddy). That is part of my issue with Nu-Uhura (aside from terrible casting) the only additional development she's gotten is that she's banging Spock--essentially she needs a man in order to give her a purpose.
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Old July 2 2013, 05:29 PM   #4
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Re: Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

xvicente wrote: View Post
Like the Sith, but better-looking.
That's in the eye of the beholder.

I think TOS was more formulaic in that regard. As you said yourself, TFF kinda broke the rule. You also didn't include the TNG movies, which I think would have broken your streak a bit. Would the Borg queen and Lily count ? And the chick from Insurrection wasn't really a "babe" by any definition, though she had some class.
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Old July 2 2013, 07:42 PM   #5
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Re: Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

Belz... wrote: View Post
You also didn't include the TNG movies
True, I didn't. I find it strange that the movie section of this bbs is split I-X/JJ and not not I-VI/Gen-Nem/JJ

ST V: Everyone who commented so far including me forgot about naked Uhura. They should have made that scene in the 60s. Or better yet, substitute Saavik, THAT would be... "memorable".

Would the Borg queen and Lily count ?
The borg queen? Of course not! she is not a babe, she is a monster! also her very existence makes the movie too much disconnected from the tv concept. Locutus was a stretch already, but at least he made the plot go in his episode. (edit: Borgs are not sexy. 7/9 was hot as hell, but not sexy. The as the Doc and the jap ensign I forget his name demonstrated.)

I never understood Lily. Fiction stories often uses a character who need things to be explained to, for the benefit of the audience. But who needed to hear Picard say "we are on a spaceship and we come from the future"? really, she could be cut and the movie would be the same. Also, she was not sexy.
(IMO of course, but I think I'm with the majority here)

Insurrection I watched only once more than 10 years ago, I dont remember any babe. I only remember it was boring as ... something very boring.

Nemesis hadn't any babe. The sex in NEM was a mind rape of an over-middle-aged just-married woman (during her honeymoon with an almost too-old-and-out-of-shape-to-be-making-porn guy she used to bang like 20 years before) by a clone dressed in latex boosted by an alien bat dressed in leather massaging his shaved head from behind him. The human relatable part was disgusting, the rest was too weird... I really, REALLY rather watch Gillian's nice smile in IV and she running around with no bra, for example.

I ended up talking a lot about The TNG movies, didnt I? I didn't mean to...
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Last edited by xvicente; July 2 2013 at 07:56 PM. Reason: babes vs monsters
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Old July 2 2013, 08:00 PM   #6
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Re: Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

xvicente wrote: View Post
Also, [Lily] was not sexy.
Is that an argument against classifying her as a babe, or against having her in the movie ?

Nemesis hadn't any babe. The sex in NEM was a mind rape of an over-middle-aged just-married woman (during her honeymoon with an almost too old guy she used to bang like 20 years before) by a clone dressed in latex boosted by an alien bat dressed in leather massaging his shaved head.
I'll bet this is what was written in the story treatment before the script was written.
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Old July 2 2013, 11:01 PM   #7
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Re: Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
They hired models instead of actresses to play Seven and T'Pol.
By that you suggest that women interested in acting who find their way to the catwalk, instead of the stage, do not deserve to audition and win roles in television/movies. (And you forgot Persis Khambatta and Terry Farrell.)

Lots of male actors were once catwalk models, desperately trying to earn enough money to pay for acting lessons. Marky Mark, aka Mark Wahlberg, was a Calvin Klein underwear model.

Have you read about the training that goes into being a catwalk model? It's really just another form of acting. It requires a lot of disipline, rehearsal, taking direction and having confidence in movement.

The less attractive would-be actors of Hollywood, I guess, become waiters, taxi drivers and garage attendants. They all have to earn a living somehow. You don't get paid to audition, and you need to audition to get roles.
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Old July 2 2013, 11:30 PM   #8
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Re: Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

^I'm saying they hired them purely because of their attractiveness. Specifically so they'd look good enough to be ogled by the lowest common denominator in the catsuits, not because they were good actresses.

The fact that they made them wear those outfits supports what I'm saying. It was out of character that they would choose to wear uncomfortable outfits that highlight their physical attractiveness. That is something human women do when they want to feel attractive or look attractive to others. A former Borg drone trying to regain her humanity and a Vulcan scientist would not logically dress like that exclusively.
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Old July 3 2013, 04:49 AM   #9
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Re: Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
^I'm saying they hired them purely because of their attractiveness.
No, they chose the women who screentested the best for the role. Attractiveness applies to almost every leading role in Hollywood - male or female - unless you are already pegged as a "character actor".
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Old July 3 2013, 05:25 PM   #10
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Re: Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
^I'm saying they hired them purely because of their attractiveness.
No, they chose the women who screentested the best for the role. Attractiveness applies to almost every leading role in Hollywood - male or female - unless you are already pegged as a "character actor".
You're giving Hollywood producers way too much credit. I'm taking the opposite approach and am stating they are giant misogynists that spend their spare time ogling/leering at women.

The meaning I am trying to convey is that they chose the two models because they had big boobs that would put butts in seats, not because they were actresses that were attractive. I'm irritated at the pandering by using T'Pol and Seven as sexual objects to attract ratings instead of well rounded characters played by good actresses.

To say it in a crude way; They chose boobs first, acting abilities second with the intention of simply showing of their bodies.
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Old July 3 2013, 06:58 PM   #11
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Re: Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

Trek often falls down by having a token number of women but we also have to remember that traditionally the leads have been male.

TMP actually featured more women than many of the other movies and they suffered because they did very little with any of the supporting cast, male or female. Having said that, there is often a significant imbalance in women amongst the supporting cast outside of the main characters and that doesn't seem justifiable in the Trek universe.

However, Lily was a great character - she was the everyman thrust into danger and she could tear Picard a new one, which none of the others could do - although Beverly, Troi, Guinan, or Riker might have been shown to broach the subject with more tact, it would not have had the same impact. Plus with Lily, Ogawa, and the Borg Queen, First Contact does pretty well on featuring women - far better than the current franchise.
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Old July 3 2013, 09:27 PM   #12
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Re: Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
^I'm saying they hired them purely because of their attractiveness.
No, they chose the women who screentested the best for the role. Attractiveness applies to almost every leading role in Hollywood - male or female - unless you are already pegged as a "character actor".
You're giving Hollywood producers way too much credit. I'm taking the opposite approach and am stating they are giant misogynists that spend their spare time ogling/leering at women.

The meaning I am trying to convey is that they chose the two models because they had big boobs that would put butts in seats, not because they were actresses that were attractive. I'm irritated at the pandering by using T'Pol and Seven as sexual objects to attract ratings instead of well rounded characters played by good actresses.

To say it in a crude way; They chose boobs first, acting abilities second with the intention of simply showing of their bodies.
In my opinion, this is clearly the case.
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Old July 4 2013, 01:44 PM   #13
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Re: Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

they chose the two models because they had big boobs that would put butts in seats, not because they were actresses that were attractive. I'm irritated at the pandering by using T'Pol and Seven as sexual objects to attract ratings instead of well rounded characters played by good actresses.
That I don't agree with. The first example that comes to my mind is, Jery Ryan put out a nice performance as 7/9 more than once, given scripts helping.

This argument seems to imply that an actress can't be good looking and act good at ther same time.

Anyway, Star Trek was about babes since the beginning, legs skirts, legs, William Theiss-designed, Roddenberry-directed costumes.... TPol, 7/9, Troi, Kheyler, Ro and the aliens of the week couldn't be different.

Also going back to the TNG movies analysis, maybe their "babenessless" is another symptom of the producers having lost the Star Trek -ness by then.
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Old July 4 2013, 11:42 PM   #14
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Re: Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
I'm taking the opposite approach and am stating they are giant misogynists that spend their spare time ogling/leering at women.
And you know this because...?

You sound jealous.
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Old July 5 2013, 08:24 PM   #15
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Re: Star Trek Babes - use only one per script

From Wikipedia: "Dictionaries define misogyny as 'hatred of women'[5][6][7] and as "hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women".[8]"

Frankly I dont see nothing of the sort even if the actressess mentioned were hired for thir looks only (which they werent)

And now that I'm the bottom of the page writing this I see the Tags "misogyny" and "sexism" were added to this thread at some point. MESSAGE TO READERS IN THE FUTURE (who might somehow wind up here searching for those terms): I don't have or don't want to share an opinion on these topics and this is far astray from what I was thinking when I made the original post which was about fun.
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