RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,085
Posts: 5,398,696
Members: 24,735
Currently online: 512
Newest member: extremedalek

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Retro Watches
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

New DS9 eBook To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

Trek Ice Cube Maker and Shot Glasses
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

City on the Edge of Forever #3 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

TV Alert: Shatner TNG Documentary
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

Forbes Cast In Powers
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 3 2013, 08:56 PM   #1
NotLKH
Lieutenant
 
NotLKH's Avatar
 
[spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Which was the most controversial portrayal of an Indian?
Ricardo Montalban portraying Khan Noonian Singh;
Benedict Cumberbatch portraying John Harrison, an alias of Khan Noonian Singh, albeit perhaps plastic surguried into a british/white fascimile;
or Johnny Depp portraying Tonto, in Indian makeup?
NotLKH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 09:04 PM   #2
CorporalClegg
Admiral
 
CorporalClegg's Avatar
 
Location: Where my heart is.
Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Tonto isn't Indian. He's American.
__________________
Konnichi wa!

Last edited by M'Sharak; July 3 2013 at 10:52 PM.
CorporalClegg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 09:15 PM   #3
Ryan8bit
Commodore
 
Ryan8bit's Avatar
 
Location: St. Paul, MN
Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

I think the Tonto thing is probably more controversial. For starters, given that in America we've had a history of repression against Native Americans, it instantly becomes a much touchier subject. And given that the character Tonto is basically all the stereotypes rolled in one, that makes it worse.

The Khan thing is at best just questionable, not even really that controversial. His race isn't firmly established, and he was previously played on screen by a fair skinned Mexican. It might have been nice if he wasn't a pale British guy, but I don't think it's quite in the same league as the Tonto stuff.

Last edited by M'Sharak; July 3 2013 at 10:52 PM.
Ryan8bit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 09:20 PM   #4
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

I also think it's Tonto. Possibly because, IIRC, all onscreen portrayals of Tonto that aren't by Johnny Depp were actually done BY authentic Native American actors. And that even then, Tonto's dialogue is one big cliché anyway.

The BEST portrayal of a Native American that I'm aware of is Graham Greene in Maverick. He even turns the whole clichéd-Indian joke on his head:

__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

Last edited by M'Sharak; July 3 2013 at 10:53 PM.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 09:29 PM   #5
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Sean Connery as an ancient Egyptian in HIGHLANDER.
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com

Last edited by M'Sharak; July 3 2013 at 10:53 PM.
Greg Cox is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 09:29 PM   #6
Locutus of Bored
A Certain Point of View
 
Locutus of Bored's Avatar
 
Location: The Force
Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

NotLKH wrote: View Post
Which was the most controversial portrayal of an Indian?
Dennis Haysbert as Pedro Cerrano in Major League. I found his assertion that Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball offensive. And the way he cursed at Jo-bu? Heresy.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Last edited by M'Sharak; July 3 2013 at 10:54 PM.
Locutus of Bored is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 09:33 PM   #7
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

^
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

Last edited by M'Sharak; July 3 2013 at 10:54 PM.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 09:50 PM   #8
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Sean Connery as an ancient Egyptian in HIGHLANDER.
John Wayne as Gengis Khan ?
__________________
And that's my opinion.

The Onmyouza Theatre: an unofficial international fanclub dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.

Last edited by M'Sharak; July 3 2013 at 10:54 PM.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 09:57 PM   #9
Opus
Commodore
 
Opus's Avatar
 
Location: Bloom County
Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Peter Sellers playing Inspector Clouseau disguised as Mr. Lo Kee.
__________________
Now that I've seen it, and have also had time to mellow, to really think about it, I now find it absolutely, unbearably repulsive in every way except for some of the acting. - about The Wrath of Khan. Interstat, Issue 62: 1982

Last edited by M'Sharak; July 3 2013 at 10:55 PM.
Opus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 10:10 PM   #10
CorporalClegg
Admiral
 
CorporalClegg's Avatar
 
Location: Where my heart is.
Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Sean Connery as an ancient Egyptian in HIGHLANDER.
Or Sean Connery as a British secret service spy disguised as Japanese.
__________________
Konnichi wa!

Last edited by M'Sharak; July 3 2013 at 10:55 PM.
CorporalClegg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 11:16 PM   #11
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Belz... wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Sean Connery as an ancient Egyptian in HIGHLANDER.
John Wayne as Gengis Khan ?
You win!

Although HIGHLANDER gets WTF points for casting a French dude as the Scotsman and Connery as the Spaniard-slash-Egyptian!

(I mean, seriously, you're shooting a movie set in Scottish Highlands, you have Sean Connery, and you cast him as the guy who isn't Scottish? That's actively perverse!)
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 4 2013, 09:07 AM   #12
Cyke101
Rear Admiral
 
Cyke101's Avatar
 
Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

I hate to say it, but in this day and age, Mickey Rourke is the frontrunner to play Genghis Khan in a new movie. There's something to be said about Hollywood's incredibly strong desire to:

1. Cast roles meant for minorities with white actors, especially when it comes to movies that seek to tell stories of other ethnicities
2. Create a period piece in a typically non-white nation, but still center it around a white character to frame it nonetheless (Chinese political revolution? Let's focus on the white priest. Thailand is devastated by a tsunami? Forget focusing on the locals, let's make the white tourists our main characters, who can afford to seek refuge outside the country.)
3. Suppress job opportunities for minority actors in the first place. It's one thing to say that actors have to work hard in order to get roles, which is obviously true. But if minority actors don't get roles, they don't build experience nor an audience that would pay to watch them, as well. It's a vicious cycle that leads to Hollywood leading roles not matching up with American racial demographics. And as the Fast and the Furious movies have shown, people *will* pay to watch a diverse cast in leading roles, but Hollywood doesn't seem to get that memo.

As for the controversy about Khan, the internal logic isn't perfect by any means, but externally, it really helped Montalban's career, who in turn fought to increase visibility for Latino actors, so that the Latino acting pool wouldn't be relegated to just a handful of brown people for leading roles. Indeed, we should consider the fact that Roddenberry intently cast a non-white for the role of Khan despite studio heads, and that the experience of playing a complex character like Khan partially inspired Montalban to create the Nosotros Foundation. Thus, in its own way, Khan being played by a Latino (or the fact that a Latino actor got to really show off his acting chops) was a trailblazing move in its own right, and Montalban's performance is one very strong reason why Khan is consistently ranked among sci-fi's greatest villains -- it showed 1960s audiences that Latino actors could be more than mere henchmen or drunks.
__________________
“You do not use science in order to prove yourself right, you use science in order to become right.”
Cyke101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 4 2013, 10:45 AM   #13
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Don't forget Keanu Reeves as a Samurai !
__________________
And that's my opinion.

The Onmyouza Theatre: an unofficial international fanclub dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 4 2013, 10:49 AM   #14
Cjohnson1701
Lieutenant
 
Cjohnson1701's Avatar
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Ay, The sad thing is, Hollywood is a business. It affects a lot of things. Mickey Rourke is a well known quantity, even more so now when he played the villain in Iron Man 2 which was a blockbuster so his name alone will generate revenue, kinda like Christopher Nolan for the new Superman movie.

On that note though it's not only minority actors that are getting the shaft from hollywood, VFX houses have been getting screwed recently, and most work is done overseas for little pay. So for us westerners, it's a lot harder to get work in this industry and don't get me started on the gaming industry.

On topic though, Tonto for sure. Khan is defined by his superior intellect and ruthless brutality, rather then his racial origins, which is what Star Trek tries to tell us. It's not the race/gender/sexual orientation, it's all the other stuff underneath. The soul of a human being; our flaws, our strengths, and our motivations is what make us truly unique.

Johnny Depp playing Tonto, is just another loose impersonation of Silly Depp cause he's a hit with the Disney audience/demographic. Don't get me wrong though, Johnny Depp is a great actor if not one of the best, he just likes doing kid movies for his kids.
Cjohnson1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 4 2013, 12:30 PM   #15
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Sean Connery as an ancient Egyptian in HIGHLANDER.
That's the great thing about Sean Connery!

JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:06 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.