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View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 28 11.16%
A 53 21.12%
A- 46 18.33%
B+ 25 9.96%
B 27 10.76%
B- 11 4.38%
C+ 13 5.18%
C 12 4.78%
C- 9 3.59%
D+ 8 3.19%
D 10 3.98%
D- 5 1.99%
F 4 1.59%
Voters: 251. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 19 2013, 04:28 AM   #1411
The Old Mixer
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Yeah, there were even references to Supergirl's death. When the Silver Age-era Legion of Super-Heroes pays him a visit with Supergirl along for the ride, he gets very upset with them, as they'd know that she'd just died recently from his perspective.
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Old November 19 2013, 06:16 AM   #1412
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And even in the example he talks about his oath not to kill.

Can't have that oath in the new films.

“I promise I will never kill anyone...“ SNAP “...again.“


As stated before, all that devastation in the climax, and that Superman is basically broken by having to kill someone... That's the end of an arc, not the beginning. The new Superman starts off as someone who a) was the reason why the bad guys came here, b) couldn't prevent major destruction, c) caused major destruction himself and d) killed his enemies. Such a guy would NEVER ever become the inspiring role model that Superman is supposed to be.
An experienced Superman was locked in to a death brawl with the monster Doomsday during the "Death of Superman" arc back in 1992. Massive amounts of casualties, property damage was caused by their battle. Doomsday was programmed to seek out and destroy Kryptonians BEFORE he was imprisoned on Earth. So during the fight he solely focused on Superman. Superman killed Doomsday and died himself. Superman was immortalized as a hero for his valor and sacrifice. It wasn't perfect but people acknowledged that Superman gave his all and did what no one else (this includes the entire Justice League and other heroes) could do. The same applies to MOS. No one else could stop Zod and his followers. Humanity had to depend on Superman to save them. Which he did.


It's kind of hard to label Superman as a viscous killer, when the people he fights against commit crimes that are far worse. Yes he's sinking to their level but what other choice does he have? A charge that Superman fans like myself have to defend against, is that Superman is a "pacifist pussy" who is given plot immunity by his writers in order to avoid him from every making hard choices. For example General Zod has been used a lot in the past decade. Each time Zod, independently or with his followers send Earth in to chaos. See Superman For Tomorrow, Superman Last Son (where Zod and his followers took out the entire Justice League and Justice Society), and The New Krytpon/War of The Supermen arc (where Zod rallies 100,000 K's in a war against Earth) that preceded the New52 reboot. Each one of those stories ended the same. Zod wreaks havoc, he duels with Superman in climatic fashion, Superman locks Zod back in to the phantom zone. It's tired and annoying at this point. The writers don't want to bring any finality to Superman and Zod's relationship and resort to just locking Zod back up in the phantom zone at the end of each skirmish.




Superman does not kill indiscriminately and without cause. The enemies he has killed; Zod (in the comics, films Superman II and MOS), Mxyzsptlk (in the comics), Doomsday (comics and animated movie) are all super powerful and can be measured as threats on galactic scales.

Other heroes who have killed with less at stake than Superman include:
Wolverine
Cyclops
Jean Grey/Phoenix
Storm
Wonder Woman
Green Lantern/Hal Jordan
Captain America
The Flash/Barry Allen
Batman (shot Darkseid with a GUN killing his host Dan Turbin)
Spider-Man
Iron-Man
Thor
Aquaman
Daredevil
Spawn
Punisher
There are more I'm sure. The point is these characters have all killed and yet no one bats and eyelash when it happens. Superman uses lethal force on characters whose powers rival his own, and he's subjected to public inquiry over his actions.

Last edited by AllStarEntprise; November 19 2013 at 06:31 AM.
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Old November 19 2013, 06:37 AM   #1413
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

I can't believe the death of Zod in the movie is the primary thing we are still discussing about the movie.

I'll give you guys this much: If Zod had simply been sent to the Phantom Zone again, at least a sequel could have dealt with him coming back. However, what would happen in that sequel? He gets sent to the Phantom Zone again?
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Old November 19 2013, 06:57 AM   #1414
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

^ If this was the comics, yes that is what would happen.

The final fight with Supes vs Zod was done by Snyder and Goyer to give the film a little more weight at the end. Nolan wanted the film to end with all Krytponians including Zod being sucked back in to the phantom zone. The scene would be followed by Lois falling out of the plan and Superman saving her. Snyder and Goyer found that unsatisfying.

Last edited by AllStarEntprise; November 19 2013 at 07:10 AM.
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Old November 19 2013, 11:03 AM   #1415
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ If this was the comics, yes that is what would happen.

The final fight with Supes vs Zod was done by Snyder and Goyer to give the film a little more weight at the end. Nolan wanted the film to end with all Krytponians including Zod being sucked back in to the phantom zone. The scene would be followed by Lois falling out of the plan and Superman saving her. Snyder and Goyer found that unsatisfying.
It really did feel tacked on. Indeed, Warners could have given them more money, and they could have made the scene longer. And loner. More destruction. By that point, there was no story. It was an sfx demo reel. I miss more poignant third acts of blockbuster films a'la The Empire Strikes Back
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Old November 19 2013, 12:25 PM   #1416
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

I always forget that Superman killed Doomsday... mainly since Doomsday didn't actually die either...
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Old November 19 2013, 12:43 PM   #1417
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ If this was the comics, yes that is what would happen.

The final fight with Supes vs Zod was done by Snyder and Goyer to give the film a little more weight at the end. Nolan wanted the film to end with all Krytponians including Zod being sucked back in to the phantom zone. The scene would be followed by Lois falling out of the plan and Superman saving her. Snyder and Goyer found that unsatisfying.
It really did feel tacked on. Indeed, Warners could have given them more money, and they could have made the scene longer. And loner. More destruction. By that point, there was no story. It was an sfx demo reel. I miss more poignant third acts of blockbuster films a'la The Empire Strikes Back
If you thought that was bad you should read how Bryan Singer's unmade MOS was going to end. Long story short, Brainiac transports his mind in to Jason and Superman is forced to kill his own son for the sake of humanity. Yeah... And people flipped when Supes killed Zod. Imagine Supes shown killing his child son.

Mr Light wrote: View Post
I always forget that Superman killed Doomsday... mainly since Doomsday didn't actually die either...
I've lost count on how many times Doomsday has "died" before Superman killed him the first time. Didn't Doomsday have something like hundreds of deaths with revivals before being planted on earth? If Doomsday wasn't such a mindless beast you could almost feel sympathetic for him. Since he was a baby when the scientist who engineered him began killing him over and over again.
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Old November 19 2013, 04:20 PM   #1418
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post

The story represented above was the sendoff story of that version of the character. And he did the honorable thing after breaking his oath...he exposed himself to Gold Kryptonite, sacrificing his powers forever, grew a 'stache, and disappeared into the obscurity of a new identity. That he went and married Lois Lane wouldn't have been a dead giveaway as to who he really was, no....
That is ridiculous. Would you expect a cop to do the honourable thing and retire after killing someone in a shootout that saved many lives?

I agree that killing someone shouldn't be your first choice and should always be used as a last resort, but taking an oath not to kill is just dumb. That would be like making all cops swear an oath never to kill no matter what the circumstances or how justifiable it might be to do so. It's just not realistic in their line of work.
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Old November 19 2013, 06:11 PM   #1419
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Agreed. This idea that "Superman can never kill", no matter what, or how many innocent lives might be saved by him doing so, has always seemed ridiculous to me. The comics and cartoons might be able to come up with some handy contrivance every time, but in the real world I expect there are many times when Superman would have no choice but to stop a threat by using deadly force.

Especially when that threat is as all-powerful as Zod.
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Old November 19 2013, 07:13 PM   #1420
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Exactly. He wouldn't need to use lethal force against even run of the mill super-villains, but against someone who is his physical equal or better he'd be hard pressed to find any non-lethal options.
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Old November 19 2013, 09:33 PM   #1421
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

davejames wrote: View Post
Agreed. This idea that "Superman can never kill", no matter what, or how many innocent lives might be saved by him doing so, has always seemed ridiculous to me. The comics and cartoons might be able to come up with some handy contrivance every time, but in the real world I expect there are many times when Superman would have no choice but to stop a threat by using deadly force.

Especially when that threat is as all-powerful as Zod.

Ex-fucking-actly.

Here's why this conversation exists in the first place:

Superman, like all superheroes of his day, especially DC heroes (1938-1960's) was written for CHILDREN. Not middle aged men, not teenagers, CHILDREN. Pretty much every superhero had a code against killing because children were the target audience and largest consumers of comic books.

But the middle aged men who now run the show demanded that their childhood entertainment grow up with them and now, unlike when I was a kid, you can't hand a child an issue of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, or Green Lantern because they're too violent for them.

So now we have middle aged men who took superheroes away from children because they wanted more "mature" (and by "mature" I mean more violent) superhero comics getting their panties in a wad because someone took the approach they wanted and actually dealt with it in the morally grey area of adults.

For some bizarre reason, this is where they try to make some kind of stand over some tiny element of nostalgia despite having upturned everything else. Yes, it was okay for every other hero to let go of the code against killing, but not Superman, no matter how powerful or maniacal the foe. It is patently ridiculous watching people say that Superman shouldn't have killed a guy who just mass murdered several thousand people and who was going to go on a killing spree with the choice being this: You'll have to kill me to prevent me from killing everyone else.

Despite having a popular movie that hammered this theme over and over, apparently some people didn't get it:
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.

They want the writers to present them with a cuddly situation where we don't ever have to face a situation like that so that they can pretend those situations would never exist in a world with super powered beings. Or they want the writers to make sure there's conveniently another option. They want a more "mature" superhero universe, but want the writers to make it just "mature" enough so that they don't have to feel embarrassed about reading about people in tights, but not too "mature" for them to have to deal with actual adult situations and the morally grey world that adults live in.

Well too bad. Don't like it, then they should have let superheroes remain as the children's entertainment that it was meant to be. Where they could adhere to codes that were as unrealistic as the black and white worlds they inhabited.

But hey, let's say Kal didn't kill Zod, what do these people think was going to happen? What was the body count in Metropolis? 5000? In a world where we executed Bin Ladin for a smaller body count and less property damage, what do these people think was going to happen to Zod? Here, I'll tell you: Zod would stand trial and be found guilty in the quickest open and shut trial in the history of the human race. Then he would be sentenced to death, and since humans have nothing that could do the job, who would that task fall to?

Superman.

That would probably be a pretty compelling story, but it would be too much for the people who can't see that Superman was in the right for killing a single person who just mass murdered thousands of human beings in order to prevent him from killing billions.
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Old November 19 2013, 09:42 PM   #1422
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

If NORAD had been able to take Zod alive, it would likely have fallen out as you suspect.

And that would indeed be an interesting story in its own right.

Anyway..."Don't like it, then they should have let superheroes remain as the children's entertainment that it was meant to be."

The italics represent my one quibble with your argument. That aside...
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Old November 20 2013, 02:33 AM   #1423
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

The problem I see is that Superman was never meant to be realistic. He's an ideal, the embodiment of being a hero. Sure, in real life nobody would let Zod or people like The Joker keep getting away to kill again. I don't watch superhero movies or read comics for realism. If I want to see a realistic view of bad people getting caught, I'll watch Cops. When I want to see an alien who at one point could move the moon by himself with his bare hands and go through time just by flying fast enough, I want the Superman who never kills and is the hero of the story. That's not to say that comics needed to stay in the silver age. Some realism is fine, and so is having characters be complex and have personalities.

But, if I wanted realism, I wouldn't deal with superheroes. Even shows like Arrow are, in the end, fairly unrealistic, and thats fine. Superheroes are supposed to have an element of fantasy and fun to them. Its ok to be dark or realistic at times, but trying to do that the majority of the time just misses the point. The Marvel movies get the combination just right. They have serious moments and threats, but the heroes aren't just going off and snapping necks or brooding, even when things get really tough. Its a fine line to walk, because most of the time you don't want to go too silly, either (although there is a place for that with certain characters).

As for having more reason to kill, Batman shot Darkseid to stop him from keeping all of Earth (and eventually all of the universe) as his slaves with the anti life equation. Those stakes are a bit bigger than Superman killing Zod because he didn't want to move his head. Even if Zod had won in MoS, the effects would still have had less consequences for the universe than an anti-life equation equipped Darkseid, so I think Batman in Final Crisis was a bit more justified in what he did than MoS Superman.

The other people AllStarEnterprise listed, wether they had less reason or not, are not Superman. Many of them have never said they wouldn't kill. Thor has "vanquished" evil creatures for millennium. Even then, he still doesn't kill most of his villains (I can't honestly think of one he did kill, although it wouldn't surprise me if he did kill one or two). Captain America probably killed Nazis, he was a soldier. GL and Phoenix were possessed and completely out of their mind, Wonder Woman killed a guy who almost certainly couldn't be held safely (plus, as an amazon she definitely didn't have a no kill oath), and trying to compare Punisher/Spawn's kills to actual superheroes is kind of ridiculous. Yes, the demon and the guy whose mo is killing gangsters might have killed people when they didn't need to. They're not even superheroes, they're anti-heroes at best. You could say the same about Wolverine's kills. I looked up Spider-Man's kills. You can't count Norman Osbourne, he pretty much killed himself. Gwen Stacy was also a weird situation, not a spider-man kill so much as an Osbourne kill with Spider-Man not being able to save her. The few other kills (from what I read on spiderfan.org) were usually the villains getting themselves into the situations where they died, he didn't just go out and straight up kill anyone. Iron man seems to have most of his kills be under mind/armor control, although he did at least once pull a MoS. Flash and Green Arrow killed people in revenge, which isn't really justified but not something normal Superman would have done anyway (we're not counting alternate Earths, they're not the mainstream superman). I seriously can't find who Aquaman killed. I don't count the new 52, since everyone is basically willing to kill, so if you're talking about Black Manta's Dad in the new 52, that doesn't count, and it was an accident anyway.

Superman is held to a different standard, that's just the way it works. While almost every superhero tries not to kill, its different when Superman kills someone. He's supposed to be the ideal superhero, the one people judge themselves against. Its fine for him to be a person, with flaws like the rest of us, but he's still supposed to be different.

Superman's oath to not kill is not supposed to hold up to real world situations, at least not as something that he never breaks. Just like how real people can't fly or dress up like a bat or get power rings. Trying to make heroes super "realistic", dark and brooding was root of the problems with all of the DC live action movies since Batman begins, but MoS definately used the worsr superhero to try to make "realistic". He's superman, if you can't take him having a bit of fantasy, and hope, well then you probably shouldn't be telling a story with him.
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Old November 20 2013, 03:20 AM   #1424
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

TheSeeker wrote: View Post
That is ridiculous. Would you expect a cop to do the honourable thing and retire after killing someone in a shootout that saved many lives?

I agree that killing someone shouldn't be your first choice and should always be used as a last resort, but taking an oath not to kill is just dumb. That would be like making all cops swear an oath never to kill no matter what the circumstances or how justifiable it might be to do so. It's just not realistic in their line of work.
Don't look at me, I didn't write the story.

It was the honorable thing because it was established in the Superman canon of the time that if he ever broke his oath, he'd renounce his powers. He did exactly that. One can debate whether it would have been better for the world to keep a Superman who happened to have a body count of one, but the man kept his word.
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Old November 20 2013, 04:08 AM   #1425
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Gojira wrote: View Post
I am a firm believer that Superman killed Zod at the end of Superman II. Also, Superman has killed before.



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Is that Pre-Crisis? Then it doesn't count
^
The story itself even labels itself as an imaginary story. In the end, aren't they all?

What you didn't show was the full scene, including the panels that directly followed the one you posted:



That's Superman going into a room with Gold Kryptonite, which in pre-Crisis continuity permanently removed a Kryptonians ability to absorb yellow solar energy, turning them, in effect, into a normal human.

Instead of beginning his heroic career after killing a villain, Superman effectively retired.
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