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View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 28 11.16%
A 53 21.12%
A- 46 18.33%
B+ 25 9.96%
B 27 10.76%
B- 11 4.38%
C+ 13 5.18%
C 12 4.78%
C- 9 3.59%
D+ 8 3.19%
D 10 3.98%
D- 5 1.99%
F 4 1.59%
Voters: 251. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 16 2013, 09:15 PM   #1366
Fist McStrongpunch
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Injustice: Gods Among Us is a very different thing and should never ever be used as an example of how things are and should be in anything else.
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Old November 16 2013, 11:25 PM   #1367
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Damn that was a long comic. Only glanced at it a bit.

I did just finish watching the movie again on iTunes.

Second viewing I found it a lot better than the first time. I think I was excepting a "Batman Begins" style movie with the involvement of Chris Nolan in it, and felt disappointed that the movie skimped on the dramatic content in favour of CGI heavy, camera dizzying effects.

I had given it a C my first viewing. Second viewing I'm going to upgrade to a B.

It desperately needed more time watching Clark as a nomad, and the Krypton stuff could have been cut short a bit.

The one thing I really hated was how Superman had to go destroy the other world engine while the first one is happily destroying Metropolis without anyone to stop it.

Again, like I said the last time, I think there's a great A movie in there with some better editing. I'm saddened to see there won't be a director's cut, as that is probably where the better dramatic "meat" of the story was left on the cutting room table.
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Old November 16 2013, 11:36 PM   #1368
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Bob The Skutter wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
Fist McStrongpunch wrote: View Post
Wow, that's really obnoxious. Get rid of that shit.
???
There shouldn't be thread stretching pictures, especially that many.
He REALLY wanted to prove Superman is a killer!
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Old November 16 2013, 11:37 PM   #1369
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Without the World Engine stopped in the southern hemisphere, Northern Command wasn't going to be able to do a blessed or damned thing about the Black Zero in Metropolis.

As for the pages from the Byrne/Ordway stories of the latter 1980's...more respect for the principles of fair use - or, in Canada, fair dealing - could have been shown here than there was whilst still getting the main points across.
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Old November 17 2013, 12:09 AM   #1370
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

I didn't read the comic pages. I said you could find comics with him killing, but they were the exception and I'd be surprised if they stayed in continuity (even though it was probably post COIE) for too long, or at the very least was probably not mentioned after that writer left. Even if it was still in continuity or mentioned, I can bet you he had a much better reason to kill whoever he killed in that comic than having the villain(s) slowly trying to laser blast people to death while superman held the villain in a position where he could easily move them but decides to kill them instead.

Stuff like Injustice doesn't count. Thats purposefully trying to be a different kind of Superman, when you're trying to portray the normal superman, he doesn't kill. He also doesn't mope, become a nomad, blindly follow his fathers and angst, but thats a different conversation.
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Old November 17 2013, 12:17 AM   #1371
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I didn't read the comic pages. I said you could find comics with him killing, but they were the exception and I'd be surprised if they stayed in continuity (even though it was probably post COIE) for too long, or at the very least was probably not mentioned after that writer left. Even if it was still in continuity or mentioned, I can bet you he had a much better reason to kill whoever he killed in that comic than having the villain(s) slowly trying to laser blast people to death while superman held the villain in a position where he could easily move them but decides to kill them instead.
You're right, you didn't read the comic pages.
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Old November 17 2013, 12:43 AM   #1372
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I didn't read the comic pages. I said you could find comics with him killing, but they were the exception and I'd be surprised if they stayed in continuity (even though it was probably post COIE) for too long, or at the very least was probably not mentioned after that writer left. Even if it was still in continuity or mentioned, I can bet you he had a much better reason to kill whoever he killed in that comic than having the villain(s) slowly trying to laser blast people to death while superman held the villain in a position where he could easily move them but decides to kill them instead.
I didn't post the comic scans to insult or mock people's opinions. Only to inform. Zack Snyder and certain Superman fans have been saying Superman has killed Zod in the comics, therefore it's ok for him to have killed Zod in MOS. However the only comic Superman killed Zod in was Superman #22 in 1988. A comic that was released only once and has never been reprinted or added to a compilation volume. There is a sense of impropriety in stating something is ok because it was in a book, and yet the book is not for sale so people can read and judge for themselves.

The whole Superman killing thing is rumored to be the author John Byrne's middle finger to DC for firing him. Byrne wrote and penciled a most if not all of the Superman comic Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths. They are collected in the reprinted volumes title "Man Of Steel" if you would like to read them. DC was alledgedly dissatisfied with Byrne's work. Coming off the Silver Age/ nearly infinitely powered Superman comics. Byrne strove to make his Superman as grounded as possible. What this resulted in is a Superman who fans claim, was BAD at being Superman. So DC fired him after 2 years on the comic. Superman #22 was his last Superman comic. Byrne's Man of Steel volumes 1-7 are available for sale, with volume 8 coming in January. No word if the controversial issue will be included.

The act of killing those 3 K's was referenced and used as the premise for the 1989 comic Superman Exile. It reintroduces Mongul and War World Post-COIE. Superman experiences nightmares from his actions in the parallel earth after Brainiac uses a mental attack on him. Superman Exile is in print and you can buy it. Also Man of Steel Vol 4 includes the first time Superman went to that parallel dimension. As well as what happened to that dimensions Superboy. Also the 2001 comic seires "Our World At War" sees the return of parallel universe Zod who was executed. His spirit possess a human and it gives him Superman-eske powers.

With the New 52, these stories are not apart of continuity anymore.


kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Stuff like Injustice doesn't count. Thats purposefully trying to be a different kind of Superman, when you're trying to portray the normal superman, he doesn't kill. He also doesn't mope, become a nomad, blindly follow his fathers and angst, but thats a different conversation.

I only brought up Injustice as a way to mock DC for it's decisions. Superman has killed a total of 4x to my recollection. "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" by Alan Moore in 1986, Superman #22 by John Byrne in 1988, "The Death of Superman" by Dan Judgens and Brett Breeding in 1992, and most recently Injustice prequel comic. Only one of them is not in print and or for sale.
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Old November 17 2013, 12:53 AM   #1373
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Byrne's Superman was awesome. Not sure where you get that "bad at being Superman" stuff.
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Old November 17 2013, 12:53 AM   #1374
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Superman (1987-2006) #22 was added to Comixology and Nook Comics on May #15 of this year.
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Old November 17 2013, 12:57 AM   #1375
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

sojourner wrote: View Post
Byrne's Superman was awesome. Not sure where you get that "bad at being Superman" stuff.
Rumor mill and from friends who have also read Byrne's series. As you can guess, I am a huge Superman fan. Byrne's series is what I grew up with.

JD wrote: View Post
Superman (1987-2006) #22 was added to Comixology and Nook Comics on May #15 of this year.
SAYETH WHAT?!! HOW DID I NOT KNOW THIS?
I'm pressing the buy now button as we speak. Thanks JD
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Old November 17 2013, 12:59 AM   #1376
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
Byrne's Superman was awesome. Not sure where you get that "bad at being Superman" stuff.
Rumor mill and from friends who have also read Byrne's series. As you can guess, I am a huge Superman fan. Byrne's series is what I grew up with.
Same here, all my friends loved Byrne's version. He was way more relate-able than the ole "planet mover".
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Old November 17 2013, 02:17 AM   #1377
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
than having the villain(s) slowly trying to laser blast people to death while superman held the villain in a position where he could easily move them but decides to kill them instead.

Do you really think Superman's only motive for killing Zod was to stop him from killing that family?

I don't think so. The killing of Zod needs to be seen in the context of all the destruction and death Zod had done up to that point.

The family was just the last straw. Zod's behavior made it clear (and he even told Superman that this was a fight to the death) that the only way he would be stopped in his plans for the destruction of earth and the reestablishing of Krypton was to kill him.
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Old November 17 2013, 02:18 AM   #1378
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Gojira wrote: View Post
kirk55555 wrote: View Post
than having the villain(s) slowly trying to laser blast people to death while superman held the villain in a position where he could easily move them but decides to kill them instead.

Do you really think Superman's only motive for killing Zod was to stop him from killing that family?

I don't think so. The killing of Zod needs to be seen in the context of all the destruction and death Zod had done up to that point.

The family was just the last straw. Zod's behavior made it clear (and he even told Superman that this was a fight to the death) that the only way he would be stopped in his plans for the destruction of earth and the reestablishing of Krypton was to kill him.
Thats even worse. If it was a split second decision made in desperation, it would still be stupid but more understandable. If he thought it through on his own and decided to kill him, he's as bad as Zod. If he can justify one murder, then he can justify being The Punisher with super powers if he wants. If he's not trying to be better than the people he fights, then there is no reason not to kill everyone he stops. He's also no longer a hero, he's a murderous vigilante. Its not like he can be arrested, the MoS universe doesn't have a way to stop him, especially now that there is no one to recreate the kryptonian atmosphere. So, he's free to kill whoever he wants.

sojourner wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
Byrne's Superman was awesome. Not sure where you get that "bad at being Superman" stuff.
Rumor mill and from friends who have also read Byrne's series. As you can guess, I am a huge Superman fan. Byrne's series is what I grew up with.
Same here, all my friends loved Byrne's version. He was way more relate-able than the ole "planet mover".

I really like John Byrne, but I've only read one issue of his superman run (it was from his Superman intro mini-series after COIE, the first appearance I think of his corporate Lex Luthor, the issue is in the Greatest Superman Stories Ever Told TPB from the 80s). If he wrote Superman killing someone just because he was fired, thats kind of a jerk thing to do. Regardless of the reasons he wrote that, its pretty lame. Byrne wrote a lot of great stuff (like Sensational She-Hulk and Alpha Flight), but like every writer he didn't always write great stuff.

Last edited by kirk55555; November 17 2013 at 02:33 AM.
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Old November 17 2013, 02:40 AM   #1379
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Kinda the point about Superman. He is the purest, most powerful superhero of them all. He is the bright shining example everyone looks up to. Superman does not kill.
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Old November 17 2013, 02:58 AM   #1380
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

I've never heard any indication that Byrne was fired. He quit because DC wasn't putting forth his version of Superman as the definitive version outside the comics. But his reinvention of Superman remained in-continuity for over a decade afterwards, so DC certainly wasn't disowning his take on the character.

Nor did I ever get the impression that Byrne left on a controversial note to stick it to DC. I was under the impression that this was a story he'd planned to do anyway, and he would have seen it through its consequences had he decided to stay. As it was, the primary writer responsible for the ensuing storyline was Byrne's friend Roger Stern.

For those not familiar with the comics in question, the gist of it is that this was an attempt to address Superman's traditional code against killing by giving it an origin in the post-Crisis continuity, rather than taking it for granted as something that came with the character out of the box. Superman reluctantly executed three Kryptonian criminals as the only remaining authority on an alternate Earth where those criminals had destroyed all life. It weighed heavily upon him, and ultimately caused him to develop a split personality. While he became less effective as Superman, he was using more extreme methods in his alternate persona as a costumed vigilante named Gangbuster. When he came to his senses and realized what he was doing, he exiled himself from Earth. During the exile storyline he came to terms with what he'd done and firmly resolved that he would never kill again.

Some people here who obviously never read the storyline in question are making a lot of generalizations about it, when they simply don't know what they're talking about.
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