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Old June 13 2013, 04:40 PM   #121
Kestrel
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Honestly, the Kobayashi Maru test's intended purpose is kind of bullshit anyway when everybody knows what it's about. People are going to have a different reaction to a scenario that you go into knowing it's an unwinnable "no-win simulation" than they will if they just think it's a standard test but the simulation is programmed so that it's secretly unwinnable.
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Old June 13 2013, 05:13 PM   #122
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Sindatur wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
But again, it wasn't an unfair test, the test wasn't about winning, it was about testing your metal in a hopeless situation. Yea, it's a mean thing to do, but, they consider it necessary to see how you react under those circumstances, in order to help weed out your Commodore Deckers. It's only unfair if you consider the reason for the test is to test your ability to win against it. I'm sure today's military pulls the same kind of thing (Letting you believe a test or training scenario is one thing, but, it's really something else. In fact, I would be surprised if they don't engage in their own Kobiyashi Maru tests at some level of Rank advancement), and I wouldn't be surprised if there are many College classes that also give you tests or puzzles you think are one thing, but, they're really something else.
Kirk's metal was tested. He didn't like having loss forced down his throat, so he changed the test. That was how his character reacted. Kirk's point was that it is a poor character trait to just roll over and die. He wasn't going to stand for a test that could not be beaten.

If you really think the test wasn't unfair, then you must think that neither nuKirk nor Prime Kirk deserved to be commended for altering the test, because in that case, by altering the fair test, Kirk failed to get the point of it.
Yes, the test wasn't unfair. And yes, they did indeed find out exactly what they wanted to know by Kirk's reaction of changing the programming instead of giving in, it showed his resourcefulness, and his "Never Say Die" attitude. In fact, I believe they found out much better what they wanted to know, then if Kirk hadn't "cheated" and kept on trying to beat it over and over again as originally written
Well, then, let's be clear. There are two different "tests" here. One is playing the scenario itself, to try to rescue the people on the ship. The other, the real test, is the test of character in reacting to the no-win scenario. To avoid confusion, from here on I'll refer to the former as the scenario test, and the latter as the character test.

If the scenario test is fair, then it is fair because taking the character test requires taking the scenario test as it's given. So, if the scenario test is fair, then altering it in any way fails the character test by avoiding it. Ergo, if it's possible to pass the character test by altering the scenario test, then the scenario test can't be fair.

We saw the scenario test played out as it was intended only in the Prime Universe, and we saw what Kirk did to alter the scenario test only in the nu-timeline. But if we assume the two versions are compatible, then we do get a picture of what Kirk did in both timelines and why.

The way in the Prime Universe scenario in which evidently the Enterprise was gimped and the Klingons were buffed constituted nothing other than rigging, to force a loss in the scenario test. Assuming compatibility of the two versions, lowering the shields on the Klingon ships in the nu-timeline attacked the rigging directly and basically says, "I see how you were rigging the [scenario] test." That's what I meant by the following.
And, I really think that the Enterprise was gimped in the Prime Universe simulation. The test seemed overtly unfair. Doing something unfair to counter inherent unfairness seems like fair play to me.
I was referring to the scenario test. The character test is fair, and wasn't compromised by altering the scenario, at least in Kirk's case.
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Old June 13 2013, 05:29 PM   #123
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Kestrel wrote: View Post
Honestly, the Kobayashi Maru test's intended purpose is kind of bullshit anyway when everybody knows what it's about. People are going to have a different reaction to a scenario that you go into knowing it's an unwinnable "no-win simulation" than they will if they just think it's a standard test but the simulation is programmed so that it's secretly unwinnable.
Everybody doesn't know it's a no-win scenario, that's a secret you are not allowed to divulge, and Starfleet sure doesn't share that information upfront
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Old June 13 2013, 05:47 PM   #124
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Kestrel wrote: View Post
Honestly, the Kobayashi Maru test's intended purpose is kind of bullshit anyway when everybody knows what it's about. People are going to have a different reaction to a scenario that you go into knowing it's an unwinnable "no-win simulation" than they will if they just think it's a standard test but the simulation is programmed so that it's secretly unwinnable.
Everybody doesn't know it's a no-win scenario, that's a secret you are not allowed to divulge, and Starfleet sure doesn't share that information upfront
Kirk was taking the test for a third time when he finally reprogrammed it, so he knew what it was about.

Plus, I don't care how many safeguards and honor codes you have in place, there's no way an unwinnable scenario test remains a secret from cadets for decades. People talk, rumors are passed. Are officers who have already graduated from the Academy never going to talk to their younger siblings or friends or family about the crazy test they had to take in command school?
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Old June 13 2013, 06:02 PM   #125
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Kestrel wrote: View Post
Honestly, the Kobayashi Maru test's intended purpose is kind of bullshit anyway when everybody knows what it's about. People are going to have a different reaction to a scenario that you go into knowing it's an unwinnable "no-win simulation" than they will if they just think it's a standard test but the simulation is programmed so that it's secretly unwinnable.
Everybody doesn't know it's a no-win scenario, that's a secret you are not allowed to divulge, and Starfleet sure doesn't share that information upfront
Kirk was taking the test for a third time when he finally reprogrammed it, so he knew what it was about.

Plus, I don't care how many safeguards and honor codes you have in place, there's no way an unwinnable scenario test remains a secret from cadets for decades. People talk, rumors are passed. Are officers who have already graduated from the Academy never going to talk to their younger siblings or friends or family about the crazy test they had to take in command school?
Decades? Spock programmed the test. He hasn't been in his capacity at Starfleet Academy for Decades? Of course Kirk assumed after a couple failures that something was up.

Sure, there will be some who will pass it onto their siblings or best buds, but, that's far from "Everybody"

There are all kinds of examples in real life where tests are kept secret by those who had to endure taking them. Do you think every student with a Biology test in 6th period would already have been told by the 1st period students who took the test already what all the questions are? No, sure one or two kids will probably know what questions are on the test, but, it's far from everybody.
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Old June 13 2013, 06:27 PM   #126
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

If they really wanted to keep some of the surprise to the test it would be part of a series of ongoing tests and that particular scenario would show up at random sometime during the series. But yeah, even with that all you have to do is look at all the websites dedicated to collecting "quest" information in MMO's today to see how long that would remain a secret.
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Old June 13 2013, 08:33 PM   #127
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Much of the above is irrelevant. So what if people tell others about the Kobayashi Maru test? If the program has random variable variations so each test is different, there won't be any significant cheats. Even more to the point, why would they inform anyone of when they're taking this test?

A little more to the point is how they manage to program the no-win scenario, except by inserting arbitrary elements. As suggested, leaving the opponent immune to any adverse random factors might be one part of that. Programming in equality between opponent and test-taker would be more fair in one sense.

In the Abrams version, Kirk programmed in a no-win scenario for the opponent. Since the original Kirk doesn't believe in the no-win scenario, the distinct implication is that is not what the original Kirk did. The difference does show a difference in the Kirks' characters, and it is a difference that reflects badly on the new version.
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Old June 13 2013, 09:46 PM   #128
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

stj wrote: View Post
In the Abrams version, Kirk programmed in a no-win scenario for the opponent. Since the original Kirk doesn't believe in the no-win scenario, the distinct implication is that is not what the original Kirk did. The difference does show a difference in the Kirks' characters, and it is a difference that reflects badly on the new version.
Man, you're really shoveling the shit there to make one look good over the other. They both CHEATED on the test. When Kirk "...reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship." he went in and knowingly changed the scenario. They both violated the LAW, as we know it, as well by hacking into a system they didn't have express consent to access.

Both made douchebag moves, the only difference is that you don't like one of them.
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Old June 13 2013, 10:25 PM   #129
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Yet McCoy calls it "cheating".
Actually, it was cranky little David Marcus who called it "cheating." McCoy said Kirk was "the only cadet to beat the no-win scenario" or words to that effect.

Sindatur wrote: View Post
RJD, could you elaborate on what program change PrimeKirk could've made that you would find commendable in contrast to what NuKirk did in his change to the program? The test wasn't to challenge you to win, the test was to examine how you would react to losing. Once you go into the program and change it to allow you to win (No matter how you change it, IMHO) there is no difference whatsoever, it's still cheating and it's "pissing" on the purpose of the test. What would have been a acceptable way for nuKirk to have cheated that would have made him just as commendable as PrimeKirk?
Well, if I could beat the no-win scenario, I'd be Captain Kirk. But, basically, it would have to be something that could happen in the real world. No commander would be able to make a bunch of Klingon ships blow up just by smirking at them like Q. It would have to be some kind of bluff, maybe, like in "The Corbomite Maneuver." Or some way to stall them to make time to beam the survivors aboard-- maybe challenge the Klingon commander to arm wrestling, or some such thing that his honor could not refuse. Something that could really happen. Just vandalizing the program is a punk-ass move by a dumb kid. It would just make Starfleet say, "Throw the bum out." Whatever he actually did made them say, "This is a kid worth watching."

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Also, a commendation for original thinking sounds like a begrudgingly made compliment, if not a backhanded one. Perhaps command wasn't so much praising what he did (altering the test) as why he did it (never give up, never surrender).
Exactly. It's a test of character. And Kirk's character did not believe in a no-win scenario.
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Old June 13 2013, 10:39 PM   #130
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

But, it was a no win sccenario, the only way to win is change the program, to allow whatever "Real World action" Kirk took. Once he hacked into the system and started monkeying with the program, there really aren't degrees to the offense. You either condem winning by monkeying with the program, or you don't condemn it. you can't condemn one instance, but, not another.

Going by PrimeKirk, in the movie, the way they said "solution" definitely hinted at PrimeKirk's solution being outside the parameters of the test.

There really isn't a difference between using a copy of the test answer sheet to answer 5 questions versus using it to answer 20 questions, both instances, IMHO, are still cheating and you either approve of both isntances or you condemn both.
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Old June 14 2013, 12:07 AM   #131
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

stj wrote: View Post

In the Abrams version, Kirk programmed in a no-win scenario for the opponent. Since the original Kirk doesn't believe in the no-win scenario, the distinct implication is that is not what the original Kirk did.
That has got to be the silliest stretch of logic I have ever read.
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Old June 14 2013, 01:03 AM   #132
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

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Man, you're really shoveling the shit there to make one look good over the other. They both CHEATED on the test. When Kirk "...reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship." he went in and knowingly changed the scenario. They both violated the LAW, as we know it, as well by hacking into a system they didn't have express consent to access.

Both made douchebag moves, the only difference is that you don't like one of them.
You're watching the movie in your head, the one where the original Kirk acted like the new Kirk. We are specifically told that the original Kirk doesn't believe in the no-win scenario, but we see that the new Kirk most certainly does...for his opponents. There most certainly is a difference.

sojourner wrote: View Post

That has got to be the silliest stretch of logic I have ever read.
Logic? Understanding dialogue and visuals are not logical argument. The only hope you have is to argue that the original Kirk's version was merely a self-justification, that his narration of the event is unreliable. I think Wrath of Khan clearly did not mean Kirk to be dishonest, and that your version is the silly stretch.

The logical argument is that both versions, the no-lose scenario the new Kirk wrote and the original Kirk's possible-win scenario, are cheating because they alter the test parameters. But an ethical argument that does not distinguish degrees of guilt is not much of an argument.

The amount of thought expended on this is extraordinary. In The Wrath of Khan, the Kobayashi Maru scenario was a foreshadowing of the plot and a metaphorical announcement of the true no-win scenario, the inevitable end of life by death. Kirk can be expected to think the test is as unfair as death. In the Abrams movies, it's not really about anything except "Badass punks the teacher!" No amount of twaddle or even bizarre-world indignation is going to make one Kirk's action the equivalent of the other.
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Old June 14 2013, 01:23 AM   #133
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

Just WOW.
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Old June 14 2013, 01:28 AM   #134
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

I love different interpretations but some of this stuff frankly hits me as a hit job against Abrams and the film which is too bad. It prevents real discussion on the film's themes and it's actual shortcomings when stuff like this happens. Of course, this is by no means limited to here but it's always depressing to see.
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Old June 14 2013, 01:35 AM   #135
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Re: J.J. Abrams enters The Twilight Zone

I love how nobody is actually addressing his points.
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