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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

View Poll Results: Which is the most powerful military?
Starfleet 17 22.37%
Klingons 2 2.63%
Romulans 1 1.32%
Dominion 56 73.68%
Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 5 2013, 02:29 PM   #121
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Timo wrote: View Post
Ad personams as well, I see, Timo.
Ah, debating rules - the last refuge of the dimwitted.

When you waste twenty lines posting irrelevant insults and claiming that the other poster has "no substance", you merely repeat a familiar pattern. Have no fear, we already know you for the empty barrel you are. Can we now get on with the actual subject matter?
Timo, I said that your hypotheticals have no support in canon whatsoever, that your semantic hair-splitting is irrelevant and that your dictums, consequently, have no value* because they are so.
And a statement of fact is not an insult.

You're the one coming up with insults - which are the true "last refuge of the dimwitted".

*Your latest post is more of the same (it is directly stated on screen that the federation doesn't understand the fundamentals of the breen weapon and, as such, is stuck - prior to capturing one such weapon; there's nothing 'swift and effortless' about how the federation finally managed to develop countermeasures; glacial reaction time of a power who developed in record time long range cloak penetrating scans - while the federation failed to do so in decades; Bashir traced Odo's scan and nothing more to Starfleet Medical - at no moment did he thought - or the writers wanted to establish - that the virus was developed there; etc).
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Old August 5 2013, 02:39 PM   #122
Timo
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Yeah, I heard you - you said all sorts of things, none of which were out of this world or of relevance. Again.

I've already won all the actual points of argument; it's just as a pastime that I now wish to draw attention to your general obnoxiousness and lack of argumentation skills. But it's apparently true to form that you wouldn't grasp the actual definition and significance of "ad hominem", either...

As for the subject matter, there isn't much left to ponder. We know who wins wars; we know who comes up with powerful counters to the powerful weapons of others; and we know who recovers from losses all the stronger for the experience. (I'm of course referring to the Borg. But the Federation gets the silver medal there; the other players listed in the poll don't score all that highly.)

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Old August 5 2013, 02:45 PM   #123
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

"I've already won all the actual points of argument"
Talk about unsupported dictums, Timo.
Plus, the accompanying insults.

It's always hilarious when someone is reduced to such tactics, being blatantly obvious how he can't let go of his fanwank mentality.
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Old August 5 2013, 02:51 PM   #124
Timo
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Note the subtle difference: you do it for life, I entertain myself on occasion.

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Old August 5 2013, 02:52 PM   #125
Shatna
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Going to interrupt once again and point out the painfully obvious: the posts here are becoming more of the "you are this" and "you are that" variety, and as the hurling of insults and personal comments can lead only to escalation, I'm drawing the line here with a big sign next to it that says DO NOT CROSS.

The main debating rule in this forum is Keep On Topic and Don't Make It Personal, Unless Of Course You Are Saying Something Nice. This is not because there are rules, and rules must be obeyed (though there is that) but because I'm not going to have a really very decent forum turn into another internet cesspool, which if left unchecked is exactly what will happen. There are excellent points being made in every post here, but then there are the ones that are marred and undermined by the addition of smarmy insults, so if nothing else you're just wrecking your own work.
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Old August 5 2013, 05:58 PM   #126
Richard Baker
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

IIRC the Japanese in WW2 created a jet engine from a single photo of the German one- one of the greatest reverse engineering feats yet.
I think it would be rather difficult to create an effective defense to an alien weapon by just observing it's effects in battle- having a sample or more intel about the principles behind it saves a lot of time. In the Best of Both Worlds Admiral Hansen spoke of how long it was taking the Federation to develop new weapons to fight the Borg- this tech tree resulted in the NX-Defiant eventually. War produces innovation with extreme motivation, but when you are attempting to counter an enemy's weapon technology it never happens as fast as you would like and then deploying it takes a lot of time as well.
The Breen were a one trick pony in battle from what I have seen on screen- they had the courage to strike Star Fleet Headquarters but after the initial strike were pretty much wiped out. In battle you see their wonderful asymmetrical ships usually getting blown up in one shot, it is only if they can fire that Energy Dampening weapon before they get wiped out do they contribute to the fight.
One disappointing thing about the Dominion War as we saw it on screen and the choices on this thread- the War was against the entire Federation, not just Star Fleet. I would have liked to have seen some Vulcan and Andorian craft in the battle group, sort of like the armada Captain Sheridan raised in B5 for the final Shadow War battle.
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Old August 5 2013, 06:07 PM   #127
Timo
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Then again, Vulcans and Andorians are known to serve in Starfleet and fly Starfleet ships. They may well have given up "local" ship production altogether, instead contributing their expertise to the construction of new generic Starfleet ships.

The last indigenous Vulcan or Andorian combat vessel we saw would have been more than 200 years out of date in the Dominion War. Of course, so were some Klingon vessels if we believe ENT "Unexpected"...

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Old August 5 2013, 07:45 PM   #128
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Richard Baker wrote: View Post
IIRC the Japanese in WW2 created a jet engine from a single photo of the German one- one of the greatest reverse engineering feats yet.
Interesting.
Do you have any details? Such as - how detailed was the photo, who reversed engineered the engine, what was the fate of the new engine, etc?

I think it would be rather difficult to create an effective defense to an alien weapon by just observing it's effects in battle- having a sample or more intel about the principles behind it saves a lot of time. In the Best of Both Worlds Admiral Hansen spoke of how long it was taking the Federation to develop new weapons to fight the Borg- this tech tree resulted in the NX-Defiant eventually. War produces innovation with extreme motivation, but when you are attempting to counter an enemy's weapon technology it never happens as fast as you would like and then deploying it takes a lot of time as well.
The Breen were a one trick pony in battle from what I have seen on screen- they had the courage to strike Star Fleet Headquarters but after the initial strike were pretty much wiped out. In battle you see their wonderful asymmetrical ships usually getting blown up in one shot, it is only if they can fire that Energy Dampening weapon before they get wiped out do they contribute to the fight.
One disappointing thing about the Dominion War as we saw it on screen and the choices on this thread- the War was against the entire Federation, not just Star Fleet. I would have liked to have seen some Vulcan and Andorian craft in the battle group, sort of like the armada Captain Sheridan raised in B5 for the final Shadow War battle.
The borg obviously has, by far, the best military technology in the galaxy (excluding the superbeings). Its ability to adapt, regenerate, assimilate, travel at transwarp, its overwhelming numbers, etc make it the dominant military power in the Milky Way.
Trying to create countermeasures against the borg is like a 19th century military trying to create countermeasures to modern weapons.
The dominion/the breen are more on less on the federation's level of technology.

The breen were complimented on their martial skills throughout the war - Martok, breaking the federation line at Chin'toka, Weyoun, the female changing (talking to Weyoun in the finale), Nog (during the fight in the finale), etc.
And, as I already observed, the breen dampening better is far better than any weapon the federation created. Indeed, the federation not only was slow to adapt to the enemy weapons, it failed to create weapons of similar effectivity (both before and throughout the war).

We saw a starfleet ship with an all-vulcan crew.
Presumably, the technology of all member species was synergised in designing starfleet/federation ships; as such, the aesthetic is the same in ships crewed by all member species.
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Old August 5 2013, 09:35 PM   #129
Sran
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Trying to create countermeasures against the borg is like a 19th century military trying to create countermeasures to modern weapons.
Is that so? Voyager seemed to do okay devising countermeasures.

Edit_XYZ wrote:
The breen were complimented on their martial skills throughout the war - Martok, breaking the federation line at Chin'toka, Weyoun, the female changing (talking to Weyoun in the finale), Nog (during the fight in the finale), etc.
Incorrect. They were praised for their skills for as long as they participated in the war. They weren't present for the majority of the conflict, only for the months leading up to its conclusion.

Edit_XYZ wrote:
And, as I already observed, the breen dampening better is far better than any weapon the federation created. Indeed, the federation not only was slow to adapt to the enemy weapons, it failed to create weapons of similar effectivity (both before and throughout the war).
There would not have been a need for the Federation to have such a weapon before the war, so I don't know why you're including that in your argument. In any case, how do you define slow? The Federation didn't realize the Breen had the weapon until the Defiant was destroyed.

Kira was able to procure a Jem'Hadar vessel equipped with a weapon within weeks of the incident. In doing so, she showed far more resourcefulness and creativity than the Breen did in dealing with the Federation. Why didn't the Breen use a similar tactic to design an improved weapon that would affect Klingon ships? Were they that inept that they were unable to capture a BOP?

--Sran
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Old August 7 2013, 04:58 PM   #130
picsiskvinechef
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

The Dominion. In tech terms they are equal to the Federation, but in terms of numbers, military capacity and arms/shipbuilding, few can rival them. All they need is a localised Founder to command operations, as well as his or her Vorta to command the Jem'Hadar and any captured/occupied worlds, and then one is set.

The Federation was lucky to win the Dominion War anyhow. Had Sisko not been the Emissary, and had not tricked the Romulans, I'm positive the war would have been lost.
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Old November 25 2013, 04:40 AM   #131
ykickamoocow
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Sorry for bringing this old thread back to life but in the final episode of Voyager it struck me that when the transwarp conduit appeared very close to earth Starfleet only had seconds to mobilise a force to fight whatever Borg came out of it and in those seconds they managed to get 18 Starships with another 9 on the way which is rather impressive numbers considering at most they had a minute or two to do it.
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Old November 25 2013, 11:05 AM   #132
bbjeg
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

^They were just throwing a party at Starfleet headquarters, bad timing for the Borg is all.
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Old December 4 2013, 06:53 PM   #133
soapp
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

bbjeg wrote: View Post
^They were just throwing a party at Starfleet headquarters, bad timing for the Borg is all.
Totally agree... and you can't quote Voyager as relevant because no matter the troubles they faced they'd always, always pull out no matter the situation & the odds, unscaved and without consequences.

In Star Trek Generations at the beginning they have one ship just going around pluto and sadly there are NO other ships in the vicinity, only they could help... ... so the opposite is also true.
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