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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

View Poll Results: Which is the most powerful military?
Starfleet 17 22.08%
Klingons 2 2.60%
Romulans 1 1.30%
Dominion 57 74.03%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 10 2013, 09:21 PM   #91
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

As per the shows, the federation, in the last centuries, underwent a period of rapid techological advance.
It should be noted, though, that the federation came up with little in the way of technological innovation during the conflict; apparently, creative solutions to the problem of the week don't scale well to all-out war. Indeed, the breen proved superior in this respect.


The dominion's technological advance could well be slower - due to sociological, etc reasons, even if it encourages innovation.
That's not to say the dominion is not significantly more advanced in certain key areas - ship production - industrial production in general (starfleet apparently barely kept up with the alpha/beta expeditionary force only), genetic engineering; and this is only what we saw.
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Old July 10 2013, 09:36 PM   #92
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Indeed, the breen proved superior in this respect.
Or then their reputed prowess in piracy was due to them having developed this energy-deprivation weapon long ago - and, until late in the Dominion War, having used it only sparingly, in situations where victory and total slaughter of witnesses was assured.

apparently, creative solutions to the problem of the week don't scale well to all-out war
If we want to make non-hero crews look good rather than artificially bad, we might argue that creative weekly solutions are constantly being implemented - and canceled out by similar solutions by the enemy. The war might really consist of a long string of tales of ingenuity and unconventional tactics, rather than application of conventional force, and the evident masses of conventional ships and troops might mainly exist as reserves for rapid application whenever a clever use for them is found locally and temporarily.

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Old July 10 2013, 09:46 PM   #93
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Timo wrote: View Post
Indeed, the breen proved superior in this respect.
Or then their reputed prowess in piracy was due to them having developed this energy-deprivation weapon long ago - and, until late in the Dominion War, having used it only sparingly, in situations where victory and total slaughter of witnesses was assured.
Perhaps.
But the federation failed to develop such a weapon both before and during the war.
About before - it may be a combination of technological inexperience in weapons building (no doubt, existing due to morality reasons - weapons builder must carry a stigma in a society as the federation's) and strategic naivete (especially after the reappearance of the romulans and after the borg). Indeed, this failure is exacerbated in that, during many missions presented in the shows, starfleet was seen acquiring technologies with significant military potential.

Which still makes the breen superior in this respect.

apparently, creative solutions to the problem of the week don't scale well to all-out war
If we want to make non-hero crews look good rather than artificially bad, we might argue that creative weekly solutions are constantly being implemented - and canceled out by similar solutions by the enemy. The war might really consist of a long string of tales of ingenuity and unconventional tactics, rather than application of conventional force, and the evident masses of conventional ships and troops might mainly exist as reserves for rapid application whenever a clever use for them is found locally and temporarily.

Timo Saloniemi
This is based on nothing established on screen - and, if such developments were decisive in the war, they would have been mentioned; indeed, you are making the heroes look artificially good rather than naturally bad.
Even if we assume it true, it would mean federation captains/engineers are, at their best, no better than jem'hadar a few months old.
Who could have known the praised federation creativity can be replicated by genetic memories and a few months practice with them?

It's worth noting that the federation failed to find a solution to the breen weapon - it needed to steal it in desperation.
Anyway one looks at this, the dominion war showed the limits of federation ingenuity - far more restricted than previously implied.
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Old July 11 2013, 08:42 PM   #94
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Perhaps. But the federation failed to develop such a weapon both before and during the war.
The Federation developed Dominion-proof shields - and we can rest assured that this happened during the war and not before, because an encounter with the Dominion would be a prerequisite for developing such a thing.

Basically, we have the Breen as a one-trick pony, and the Federation as a generally acknowledged stampede of such equines. We can subsequently argue that the Breen developed their one trick before or during the war, whilst we know the Federation developed one trick during the war. At most, this can hint at parity between the powers; in no case does it make the Breen superior.

it may be a combination of technological inexperience in weapons building and strategic naivete
"It" amounts to the development of a range of useful weapon technologies, in no way falling short of what the Breen have achieved in the same timeframe (once we leave out the one big trick from each side). That the Breen would have some inherent advantage over the Federation in developing weapons remains to be demonstrated, beyond this one-trick pony race with a photo finish.

The actual achievements notwithstanding, it would be very interesting to know whether the Breen have inherent advantages or disadvantages there, and what those might be. But the Breen are too much of a mystery for that. Are they a "militant" species? Having an active piracy segment does not necessarily establish such, as pirates could be outcasts, operating against the norms of the society. Are they a "ruthlessly centralized" species? Piracy might actually be a counterindication to that, although I'd speculate it takes an iron-gripped government to keep the great Breen secrets (the suits, the nature of the homeworld, the superweapon) from leaking out. Are they an "exceptionally imaginative" species? A distinct possibility, considering how they not only manage to keep those secrets, but seem to have developed political teflon armor as well, suffering no known consequences from their participation in the Dominion War.

This is based on nothing established on screen
Nor is the "weekly hero achievements don't represent the big picture" model. And for a very simple reason: most of the Trek universe remains outside our TV screens. This is especially true of the Dominion war, where we were stuck at a quiet side theater (much like the Washington/Richmond theater in the Civil War) for most of the war.

and, if such developments were decisive in the war, they would have been mentioned
Why comment, if they are the only thing that ever happens? It would be pretty natural for the Star Trek universe to operate like Star Trek shows it operating, even when the camera isn't present. While Sisko is at the focus, we know Picard is out there, too. Why not ten thousand Picards commanding ten thousand ships? Some have good days, some have bad days. Unlike Picard during his decade in the limelights, some die, on or off camera. On the average, the universe trundles along.

Even if we assume it true, it would mean federation captains/engineers are, at their best, no better than jem'hadar a few months old.
At their best, they might live; at anything less, they might die. And Kirk and Picard had off days, too. It would simply be a game of numbers, with more fighting days and more enemies to fight grinding down the Kirks and Picards little by little.

Who could have known the praised federation creativity can be replicated by genetic memories and a few months practice with them?
Well, that's the problem you lamented a few lines earlier: in Trek, stuff gets forgotten, even though it could easily be written down and translated into an expert program. Why waste 45 minutes coming up with a solution to a hole-in-space or a pissed-off god when you can look up how Kirk did it? And this applies both to the Federation, with a proud 200-year tradition of daring adventures, and the Dominion, with a more sedate but 10,000-year tradition...

It's worth noting that the federation failed to find a solution to the breen weapon - it needed to steal it in desperation.
It is also worth noting the Breen failed to find a solution to anything, while the Feds at least tackled the phased polaron beam shielding problem.

Anyway one looks at this, the dominion war showed the limits of federation ingenuity - far more restricted than previously implied.
This I could agree with, but moderated with the above. Not only did the Feds learn how to protect their ships against ppbs, they learned how to see the Houdinis, how to save somebody hit with the ppb poisons, and how to smoke out and kill Founders - all Founders! That's about the amount of ingenuity you get in a season of TNG, although admittedly spread out over several seasons here.

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Old July 11 2013, 09:30 PM   #95
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

The federation managed to come up with shields efficient against dominion weapons only after it obtained a dominion ship.
It managed to develop a countermeasure for the breen energy weapon only after it obtained the weapon.
Both achievements were highly publicised; despite them only coming about due to reverse-engineering - without such help, federation engineers proved unable to solve the problems.
And you claim other achievements, of comparable scale, were not mentioned as not being important enough?

As for the breen, they managed to find a solution to passing through federation/romulan/klingon shields easily; that's quite a bit more than the federation can say about its creative energies. An 1 trick pony beats a 0 trick pony.

The federation not managing to integrate the many technologies with military potential it encountered - due to whatever reason (adventure seeking tradition, social stigma or strategic naivete) - remains a grave failure.

As for the ten thousand Picards - they proved to not be better overall (good days + bad days) than ten thousand genetic memory jem'hadar with a few months of experience. Unimpressive.


PS - the federation found out how to smoke out founders AKA find them despite their shape-shifting? Not really.
S31's virus was quite the bio-weapon, indeed. But no named starfleet character would claim or even accept it being called federation.

Starfleet personnel did, indeed, manage to see Houdinis; which was seen as quite the breakthrough (as in, not a standard day's work) and not followed by the dominion negating this achievement the next day.
Apropos that episode, starfleet was still unable to decode dominion transmissions when it was over - after months of trying.

"That's about the amount of ingenuity you get in a season of TNG, although admittedly spread out over several seasons here."
You forgot to add "coming from the crew of a single ship".
There was a LOT more then the crew of a federation ship working on the problems during the war - and failing to solve them.
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Old August 3 2013, 04:33 AM   #96
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

USS KG5 wrote: View Post
Saturn0660 wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
The Klingons never seemed to master dentistry.
Much like the British.
They turn up late to the fight in "Sacrifice of Angels" - much like the Americans
And they kicked butt - much like the Americans.
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Old August 3 2013, 07:58 PM   #97
Angel4576
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

You're all wrong.

Think you'll find that this is the most powerful military fella in Star Trek;

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Old August 4 2013, 02:23 AM   #98
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

^
Given they're vulnerable to Civil War muskets, that's a matter of claim.
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Old August 4 2013, 12:36 PM   #99
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

R. Star wrote: View Post
^
Given they're vulnerable to Civil War muskets, that's a matter of claim.
Civil war muskets that they conjured into existence themselves. As far as we know, only Q can kill Q.
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Old August 4 2013, 03:29 PM   #100
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Angel4576 wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
^
Given they're vulnerable to Civil War muskets, that's a matter of claim.
Civil war muskets that they conjured into existence themselves. As far as we know, only Q can kill Q.


Robert Q Lee disagrees.
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Old August 4 2013, 04:19 PM   #101
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

R. Star wrote: View Post
Robert Q Lee disagrees.
Robert Q Lee would prove the point.
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Old August 4 2013, 04:51 PM   #102
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
And they kicked butt - much like the Americans.
Wrong. The Americans entered World War I much later than their allies, hence their being labeled "late to the party." They didn't kick anyone's butt. If anything, American prevented Germany from winning the war, but to say that they were the reason the "good guys" won is completely off-base. And this is coming from an American. If you ever say something like your above comment to anyone from Great Britain, you'd better stand back.

--Sran
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Old August 4 2013, 04:53 PM   #103
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
It's worth noting that the federation failed to find a solution to the breen weapon - it needed to steal it in desperation.
Wrong. It was Kira's idea to steal the Breen weapon, something she decided on her own. The Federation didn't ask her to steal it.

--Sran
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Old August 4 2013, 06:11 PM   #104
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

Sran wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
And they kicked butt - much like the Americans.
Wrong. The Americans entered World War I much later than their allies, hence their being labeled "late to the party." They didn't kick anyone's butt. If anything, American prevented Germany from winning the war, but to say that they were the reason the "good guys" won is completely off-base. And this is coming from an American. If you ever say something like your above comment to anyone from Great Britain, you'd better stand back.

--Sran
I didn't say the Americans entered WWI before anyone else, maybe you should get some glasses, I said once they arrived, they did really well in preventing Germany from winning the war.
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Old August 4 2013, 06:31 PM   #105
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Re: Most Powerful Military Powers in Star Trek

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
I didn't say the Americans entered WWI before anyone else, maybe you should get some glasses, I said once they arrived, they did really well in preventing Germany from winning the war.
No, you didn't.

kgartm1185 wrote:
And they kicked butt - much like the Americans.
That's what you said. I said the Americans prevented Germany from winning the war. I think you're the one who needs glasses (you could use an ass-whipping, too).

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