RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,962
Posts: 5,391,716
Members: 24,719
Currently online: 665
Newest member: terkarivish

TrekToday headlines

Forbes Cast In Powers
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

Dorn To Voice Firefly Character
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

No ALS Ice Bucket For Saldana
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

Free Star Trek Trexels Game
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

New Trek-themed Bobble Heads
By: T'Bonz on Aug 21

IDW Publishing November Trek Comic
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Pegg/Wright Trilogy In The Works
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Star Trek: The Compendium Rebate Details
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Gold Key Archives Volume 2
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Takei Documentary Wins Award
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old June 9 2013, 10:47 PM   #76
KittyDuran
Lieutenant Commander
 
KittyDuran's Avatar
 
Location: Hungry (like the wolf)
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

teacake wrote: View Post
Even though I bang on about wanting more women and in general prefer women characters I give Star Trek a pass on the male main leads. That is just TOS for you. Kirk and Spock were a duo the way Picard and Riker never were, chemistry and writing just made some magic with those two. I think JJ is doing some stuff towards putting more women into the supporting characters and I also think he could have made a much bigger effort in this film. Yes there are 5 (?) women at the table when the special meeting is called (someone posted a pic with them numbered, might be more). But they are still a distinct minority. And when Kirk and Spock run up to talk to Marcus about Khan being on Chronos he is having a meeting with about 7 other people he dismisses. All of those people are men. That's just silly. How hard would it be to make half of them women? I look at this and think, didn't JJ notice?

So he has a way to go just visually IMO. But I'm totally cool with this being the Kirk and Spock show, that's what I'm here for.
In the special meeting at Daystrom there were Admirals, Captains and First Officers - also, some of them either died or where injured (including one woman in the leg) when Khan attacked - the officers in the special meeting with Marcus when Kirk and Spock interrupt might be some of the survivors or replacements (but just happen to be all men). Also, at the time, before Kirk and Spock inform Marcus that Khan is on Kronos, it was believed that Khan was still either on Earth or in federation space - maybe Marcus was having more than one meeting with officers of different regions.
KittyDuran is offline  
Old June 11 2013, 02:48 PM   #77
CommishSleer
Fleet Captain
 
CommishSleer's Avatar
 
Location: Way back of nowhere
View CommishSleer's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

KittyDuran wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Even though I bang on about wanting more women and in general prefer women characters I give Star Trek a pass on the male main leads. That is just TOS for you. Kirk and Spock were a duo the way Picard and Riker never were, chemistry and writing just made some magic with those two. I think JJ is doing some stuff towards putting more women into the supporting characters and I also think he could have made a much bigger effort in this film. Yes there are 5 (?) women at the table when the special meeting is called (someone posted a pic with them numbered, might be more). But they are still a distinct minority. And when Kirk and Spock run up to talk to Marcus about Khan being on Chronos he is having a meeting with about 7 other people he dismisses. All of those people are men. That's just silly. How hard would it be to make half of them women? I look at this and think, didn't JJ notice?

So he has a way to go just visually IMO. But I'm totally cool with this being the Kirk and Spock show, that's what I'm here for.
In the special meeting at Daystrom there were Admirals, Captains and First Officers - also, some of them either died or where injured (including one woman in the leg) when Khan attacked - the officers in the special meeting with Marcus when Kirk and Spock interrupt might be some of the survivors or replacements (but just happen to be all men). Also, at the time, before Kirk and Spock inform Marcus that Khan is on Kronos, it was believed that Khan was still either on Earth or in federation space - maybe Marcus was having more than one meeting with officers of different regions.
I get the impression that Marcus' interrupted meeting was with the upper echelons which were all male. Perhaps JJ doesn't want to show older ladies on screen but maybe older men are acceptable.
CommishSleer is online now  
Old June 12 2013, 01:11 AM   #78
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

It doesn't matter if they were the upper echelons or the cleaning staff. Making them all male is ridiculous and just dumb on JJ's part.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is offline  
Old June 12 2013, 03:29 AM   #79
KittyDuran
Lieutenant Commander
 
KittyDuran's Avatar
 
Location: Hungry (like the wolf)
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

teacake wrote: View Post
It doesn't matter if they were the upper echelons or the cleaning staff. Making them all male is ridiculous and just dumb on JJ's part.
At the ceremony at the end of the movie - IIRC there was a good representation on the podium with Kirk (still don't like the short skirts - but that's because I never looked good in them when I was younger).
KittyDuran is offline  
Old June 12 2013, 03:33 AM   #80
KittyDuran
Lieutenant Commander
 
KittyDuran's Avatar
 
Location: Hungry (like the wolf)
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

teacake wrote: View Post
It doesn't matter if they were the upper echelons or the cleaning staff. Making them all male is ridiculous and just dumb on JJ's part.
Or maybe JJ wants to show us that Marcus is really just a male chauvinist when the chips are down? (I know, I'm reaching!)
KittyDuran is offline  
Old June 12 2013, 03:40 AM   #81
KittyDuran
Lieutenant Commander
 
KittyDuran's Avatar
 
Location: Hungry (like the wolf)
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
KittyDuran wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Even though I bang on about wanting more women and in general prefer women characters I give Star Trek a pass on the male main leads. That is just TOS for you. Kirk and Spock were a duo the way Picard and Riker never were, chemistry and writing just made some magic with those two. I think JJ is doing some stuff towards putting more women into the supporting characters and I also think he could have made a much bigger effort in this film. Yes there are 5 (?) women at the table when the special meeting is called (someone posted a pic with them numbered, might be more). But they are still a distinct minority. And when Kirk and Spock run up to talk to Marcus about Khan being on Chronos he is having a meeting with about 7 other people he dismisses. All of those people are men. That's just silly. How hard would it be to make half of them women? I look at this and think, didn't JJ notice?

So he has a way to go just visually IMO. But I'm totally cool with this being the Kirk and Spock show, that's what I'm here for.
In the special meeting at Daystrom there were Admirals, Captains and First Officers - also, some of them either died or where injured (including one woman in the leg) when Khan attacked - the officers in the special meeting with Marcus when Kirk and Spock interrupt might be some of the survivors or replacements (but just happen to be all men). Also, at the time, before Kirk and Spock inform Marcus that Khan is on Kronos, it was believed that Khan was still either on Earth or in federation space - maybe Marcus was having more than one meeting with officers of different regions.
I get the impression that Marcus' interrupted meeting was with the upper echelons which were all male. Perhaps JJ doesn't want to show older ladies on screen but maybe older men are acceptable.
At both ceremonies at the end of ST09 and STiD there were older ladies (officers) present. STO9 centered around cadets going forth to Vulcan while the rest of the fleet with some older personnel where in the Laurentian System (?) - so there wasn't much of mixture of ages. But apart from some scenes in STiD there wasn't that many older people represented. My theory is that aging has slowed or that people are living longer and looking younger - the product of lifestyle and science but I also believe that with some blending of species - example would be Spock who would still outlive the other crew members because of being half Vulcan. I really didn't even see anyone really over what we would consider 40 in the crowd scenes of San Francisco at the end of STiD.
KittyDuran is offline  
Old June 12 2013, 05:20 AM   #82
CommishSleer
Fleet Captain
 
CommishSleer's Avatar
 
Location: Way back of nowhere
View CommishSleer's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Just reaching again a bit on the subject of sexism a bit. I don't really think the movie was sexist considering that they had the pre-existing gender distribution of TOS (almost all guys). JJ could have done better but the movie is certainly has better gender distribution than a lot of movies around.
However the scene with Carol in her undies makes me (despite my better judgement) think of her less seriously. In TWOK I got the impression that Carol was Spock's peer. I respected her there.
In STID I think she was fiddling around a bit. I think we need to see more hard science out of her. She shouldn't be there IMO just to be Kirk's possible baby mama.
CommishSleer is online now  
Old June 12 2013, 04:47 PM   #83
beamMe
Fleet Captain
 
beamMe's Avatar
 
Location: Europa
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Just reaching again a bit on the subject of sexism a bit. I don't really think the movie was sexist considering that they had the pre-existing gender distribution of TOS (almost all guys). JJ could have done better but the movie is certainly has better gender distribution than a lot of movies around.
However the scene with Carol in her undies makes me (despite my better judgement) think of her less seriously. In TWOK I got the impression that Carol was Spock's peer. I respected her there.
In STID I think she was fiddling around a bit. I think we need to see more hard science out of her. She shouldn't be there IMO just to be Kirk's possible baby mama.
You think less of Kirk, too, since he was shown at least twice in his undies now?
beamMe is offline  
Old June 12 2013, 05:22 PM   #84
Ovation
Vice Admiral
 
Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Besides, it's not like the camera lingers on Alice Eve for several minutes. It's a brief glimpse that also manages to belittle "Kirk's reputation" by Marcus' "Turn around." The supposedly irresistible womanizer, in Abrams Trek, is shot down quite efficiently by the two most prominent female characters. Did it have to include a shot of Eve in her undies? No. Uhura was fully clothed in the bar in the 09 version. But the undies did underscore the awkwardness of Kirk's glance (making it another lesson on the road from youthfulness to maturity) while also engaging in a rather mild form of brief titillation--something that no other film (including no other Trek) has ever done, of course.

Just because it is a Trek movie doesn't mean it will be devoid of titillation (no matter what the committee for the way things ought to be would like). It is entertainment, first and foremost, not a training film on how to completely avoid the objectification of people (and I mean people--not just women).
Ovation is offline  
Old June 12 2013, 07:31 PM   #85
EnsignRicky
Commodore
 
EnsignRicky's Avatar
 
Location: Somewhere Far Beyond
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Devon wrote: View Post
1. It has to have at least two [named] women in it
2. Who talk to each other
3. About something besides a man
The Wrath of Khan...

Saavik & Uhura.

2. Fails, so automatically so does 3.

In that one, Uhura hails Regula 1 to ascertain the situation.
Saavik responds to her without ever mentioning men.
The Wrath Of Khan actually just passes the test.
__________________
Use Only As Directed
EnsignRicky is offline  
Old June 13 2013, 12:16 PM   #86
CommishSleer
Fleet Captain
 
CommishSleer's Avatar
 
Location: Way back of nowhere
View CommishSleer's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

beamMe wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Just reaching again a bit on the subject of sexism a bit. I don't really think the movie was sexist considering that they had the pre-existing gender distribution of TOS (almost all guys). JJ could have done better but the movie is certainly has better gender distribution than a lot of movies around.
However the scene with Carol in her undies makes me (despite my better judgement) think of her less seriously. In TWOK I got the impression that Carol was Spock's peer. I respected her there.
In STID I think she was fiddling around a bit. I think we need to see more hard science out of her. She shouldn't be there IMO just to be Kirk's possible baby mama.
You think less of Kirk, too, since he was shown at least twice in his undies now?
I couldn't think less of Kirk in that respect.

I don't feel the same about Uhura even though she did the same thing in ST09. I suppose it was because she had shown herself to be tough or professional in other respects IMO. I know people didn't like the kissing but give me a break.
I'm not against seeing scantily clad people though just maybe with some more feasible reason.
CommishSleer is online now  
Old June 13 2013, 12:44 PM   #87
CrazyHorse89
Lieutenant
 
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
KittyDuran wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Even though I bang on about wanting more women and in general prefer women characters I give Star Trek a pass on the male main leads. That is just TOS for you. Kirk and Spock were a duo the way Picard and Riker never were, chemistry and writing just made some magic with those two. I think JJ is doing some stuff towards putting more women into the supporting characters and I also think he could have made a much bigger effort in this film. Yes there are 5 (?) women at the table when the special meeting is called (someone posted a pic with them numbered, might be more). But they are still a distinct minority. And when Kirk and Spock run up to talk to Marcus about Khan being on Chronos he is having a meeting with about 7 other people he dismisses. All of those people are men. That's just silly. How hard would it be to make half of them women? I look at this and think, didn't JJ notice?

So he has a way to go just visually IMO. But I'm totally cool with this being the Kirk and Spock show, that's what I'm here for.
In the special meeting at Daystrom there were Admirals, Captains and First Officers - also, some of them either died or where injured (including one woman in the leg) when Khan attacked - the officers in the special meeting with Marcus when Kirk and Spock interrupt might be some of the survivors or replacements (but just happen to be all men). Also, at the time, before Kirk and Spock inform Marcus that Khan is on Kronos, it was believed that Khan was still either on Earth or in federation space - maybe Marcus was having more than one meeting with officers of different regions.
I get the impression that Marcus' interrupted meeting was with the upper echelons which were all male. Perhaps JJ doesn't want to show older ladies on screen but maybe older men are acceptable.
I went to see 'Into Darkness' on its UK opening night, and when this scene came on my girlfriend turned to me and whispered "so, I guess not much has changed in the future; old men still running things". It was just so obvious: when the writers, casting agents, or directors think about the 'top brass', they think about old men.
CrazyHorse89 is offline  
Old June 13 2013, 07:17 PM   #88
Pauln6
Rear Admiral
 
Pauln6's Avatar
 
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Just reaching again a bit on the subject of sexism a bit. I don't really think the movie was sexist considering that they had the pre-existing gender distribution of TOS (almost all guys). JJ could have done better but the movie is certainly has better gender distribution than a lot of movies around.
However the scene with Carol in her undies makes me (despite my better judgement) think of her less seriously. In TWOK I got the impression that Carol was Spock's peer. I respected her there.
In STID I think she was fiddling around a bit. I think we need to see more hard science out of her. She shouldn't be there IMO just to be Kirk's possible baby mama.
Both movies were very sexist in fact. They suffer from token female syndrome also known as the Smurfette principal where they focus on one or two female characters. Giving Carol more to do will be good, but she'll still be a Smurfette.

Another way to look at it is to say, remove Kirk and Spock and look at all the male characters you have left. Remove Uhura and Carol and look at all the female characters you have left. Go one step further and remove the Big 7 and see how many men and women you have left. There is no comparison.

Whether you have two male leads or not, the supporting cast is in no way balanced and the women they do have are mostly women because they have to be (mothers, girlfriends etc). The notable exception is in the stereotypical sick bay, where there are lots of women but apart from that we've had no female security guards, very few (maybe 10%) female senior officers, no female captains or first officers (and they wrote out Number One and replaced her with Spock). They also focused exclusively on male spokesmen for the Vulcans despite having T'Pau to work with.

None of the Enterprise's senior officers in the first movie were women (not even the ill-fated doctor and engineer). I don't think Marcus has any women in his crew does he? They wrote out Chapel and Rand and introduced Keenser and Cupcake.

Their errors are many and varied but yes, both movies are definitely sexist.
__________________
Star Trek/Babylon 5/Alien crossover www.youtube.com/user/pauln6

Other Worlds Role Playing Game
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/produc...ducts_id=97631
Pauln6 is offline  
Old June 13 2013, 08:18 PM   #89
beamMe
Fleet Captain
 
beamMe's Avatar
 
Location: Europa
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post

Both movies were very sexist in fact.

...

both movies are definitely sexist.
No.
beamMe is offline  
Old June 13 2013, 08:26 PM   #90
Pauln6
Rear Admiral
 
Pauln6's Avatar
 
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

beamMe wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post

Both movies were very sexist in fact.

...

both movies are definitely sexist.
No.
Concise! But I'll rephrase. In failing to show on screen an equivalent mix of male and female characters in equal numbers, both movies fail to demonstrate a reasonable level of gender equality in the 23rd century (or the 21st century).

As an aside, after you remove Uhura and Carol from the mix, do you think there are enough women remaining? And where are they?
__________________
Star Trek/Babylon 5/Alien crossover www.youtube.com/user/pauln6

Other Worlds Role Playing Game
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/produc...ducts_id=97631
Pauln6 is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:43 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.