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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 23 2013, 09:32 AM   #571
Therin of Andor
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

teacake wrote: View Post
Babylon 5 is vastly superior to Star Trek.
No. It definitely isn't. Neither is any of the "Stargate" series.

There's just a helluva lot more Star Trek out there so it becomes more interesting to talk about. I don't really get how anyone who likes Star Trek can see Babylon 5 as "ick" though.
I have tried to get into B5 many, many times. Its characters are not appealing to me, its political episodes reminded me of the political episodes of DS9. Disliked them too.

The B5 sets were uninteresting and elements (esp. those damn distinctive window/grates) were borrowed from the same rental company as TNG. Londo's hair was an embarrassment and his species felt very "meh" to me. Delenn's alien makeup was bizarre. When she began to look more human, how did she train her long hair to grow through her bony cranial ridges?

I did like Walter Koenig's character, but I was already biased.
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Old June 23 2013, 09:35 AM   #572
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Kirk's a softy. Remember how dewy eyed he got seeing Ruth?
Kirk Prime was a softy.

Re: "Defiance":
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It's both, actually. Some kind of experiment they're running by having the video game run in parallel to the TV show like a multimedia MMORPG. I've been keeping silent on it so far because I think the video game sucks and the show sucks even harder but it's acquired a surprisingly large following in a short time; the last time this happened was Stargate SG-1...
Whew. I thought I'd interpreted the posters correctly. It sounded like a video game to me.

"Stargate"? Bleh.
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Old June 23 2013, 10:35 AM   #573
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
Watched three episodes of Defiance and wanted to scoop my eyeballs out with a rusty spoon.
That's interesting. But it should come as no surprise that people argue from different perspectives because we actually like different things.

However, doyou accept that it is a franchise that has more gender balance?
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Old June 23 2013, 10:47 AM   #574
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Opus wrote: View Post
I find it hilarious that we're supposed to consider STiD the most sexist movie ever made because of a two-second bikini scene, yet we should give TMP a pass for having a bald Indian supermodel prancing around for half the movie in a skimpy white robe, nylons and clear stripper heels because she had a scene where she talked to Christine Chapel.

Good luck with your 'cause'.
I just wanted to comment on this because it is largely hyperbole but it touches on a valid point.

Obviously nobody thinks STiD is particularly sexist, although it could do better. The underwear shot was gratuitous and therefore some view it as sexist. The reality is that sex sells and it was there as a blatant attempt to flash some skin even though it was irrelevant to the wider plot. Movie makers are going to do this because generally it works. The numbers don't lie.

I think some people have struggled to understand why I think have large numbers of wives, daughters, and prostitutes in GoT is preferable to having two professional women in STiD. Some setting, by their nature have a gender divide. That does not mean they are sexist and if they are, it may be legitimate. I don't mind if a franchise is sexist for a reason BUT I would still prefer to see a lot of women in the roles available to them. Whether the production is sexist will then depend on whether the entire focus is on the men or whether the women are developed as characters. Others, such as army movies, may have very few women at all.

The debate is whether STiD should be in a sexist setting. TOS was sexist and Enterprise stuck with the official gender divide for the sake of canon, although it was abandoned by TMP.

So the question is whether STiD should use the Butterfly Effect to wipe away the gender divide and use women more often in its supporting cast. I think it should and others are not bothered. It is a question of personal taste as to whether you are bothered but it touches on the known sexism in the industry because the gender divide has ben industry wide for a long time, with a few exceptions.

That seems to be it in a nutshell?
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Old June 23 2013, 12:07 PM   #575
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Babylon 5 is vastly superior to Star Trek.
No. It definitely isn't. Neither is any of the "Stargate" series.
Funny thing, opinions, hers is equally valid. One difference, though, I agree with teacake's.
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Old June 23 2013, 12:34 PM   #576
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Really? Vastly superior? I'm not arguing an opinion, I'm just surprised.
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Old June 23 2013, 12:42 PM   #577
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Whether the production is sexist will then depend on whether the entire focus is on the men or whether the women are developed as characters.
The focus in a Star Trek film will always be on the two male leads (Kirk and Spock).
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Old June 23 2013, 12:47 PM   #578
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Tosk wrote: View Post
Really? Vastly superior? I'm not arguing an opinion, I'm just surprised.
As a story, yes. B5 was produced as a continuous narrative which none of the other Trek series were. I found that far more satisfying than Trek, especially the TNG era shows. B5, Farscape, Stargate, all have been more entertaining to me. JJ's films have brought back the fun which I associate with TOS and found very absent from TNG Trek.
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Old June 23 2013, 01:12 PM   #579
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
The debate is whether STiD should be in a sexist setting. TOS was sexist and Enterprise stuck with the official gender divide for the sake of canon, although it was abandoned by TMP.
My perspective is a little different on this. I regarded TOS, TNG and ENT as sexist and the TOS/TNG movies to some extent carried this on if you want to look at it from a strict feminist perspective. Not more sexist than the equivalent series/movies made at the same time though.

Even if you include VOY and DS9 I can only think of one human woman who ever took over the command position (even temporarily) on the series' ship/space station - Janeway.
Except maybe Shelby did in TNG and I'm not counting Troi's and Crusher's one off play at command.

Even in DS9, the human women were wives and mothers
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Old June 23 2013, 01:17 PM   #580
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
However, doyou accept that it is a franchise that has more gender balance?
Sure, but what does that matter if it isn't very good? But it's also a TV series not a two-hour movie, it is new and not based on previous material and it didn't have seven core characters it had to service

It's an apples and pork chops comparison.
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Old June 23 2013, 02:36 PM   #581
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Whether the production is sexist will then depend on whether the entire focus is on the men or whether the women are developed as characters.
That sounds like a pretty narrow definition.
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Old June 23 2013, 04:28 PM   #582
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
The debate is whether STiD should be in a sexist setting. TOS was sexist and Enterprise stuck with the official gender divide for the sake of canon, although it was abandoned by TMP.
My perspective is a little different on this. I regarded TOS, TNG and ENT as sexist and the TOS/TNG movies to some extent carried this on if you want to look at it from a strict feminist perspective. Not more sexist than the equivalent series/movies made at the same time though.

Even if you include VOY and DS9 I can only think of one human woman who ever took over the command position (even temporarily) on the series' ship/space station - Janeway.
Except maybe Shelby did in TNG and I'm not counting Troi's and Crusher's one off play at command.

Even in DS9, the human women were wives and mothers
So now the women don't count as much because they weren't "human?" You make it seem like the inclusive nature of the series is a bad thing. Just because Kira was Bajoran (and really, the only thing that looks different about them is the ridge of the nose) that means that her taking command of the station doesn't count. Your emphasis on "human," or race rather, seems a little problematic to me.

Honestly, I think the women on DS9 were handled very well. And the human women weren't just wives and mothers. Keiko was a teacher and and a talented botanist. She didn't just sit around with the kids:

Memory Alpha wrote:
"In 2371, Keiko joined an agrobiology expedition on Bajor, where she served as chief botanist."
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Keiko_O%27Brien

You also had that kind of snotty lady Vice Admiral that Sisko had to answer to, Alynna Nechayev:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Alynna_Nechayev

Sisko's wife died in the pilot, but she was also a Starfleet officer, and we got to see her as a career woman in the Mirrorverse. Although she seemed to form a bond with Ben and particularly with Jake, she was neither a wife nor a mother:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Jenn...o_%28mirror%29

Then you had Cassidy Yates, who for most of the series was neither a wife nor a mother. She was very clearly a career woman, a freighter captain, who stayed in touch with her family (her brother played baseball, and that was one thing he had in common with Sisko).

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Kasidy_Yates-Sisko

These are the "human" women that come to mind right now, but there may be more. Needless to say, humans and other races (and their genders) were handled very well on DS9. Much better than Into Darkness, and of course this series passes the Bechdel Test.

And since we're talking about being spouses and parents, I think it's only fair to mention that Sisko, Worf, and O'brien were each fathers and husbands on the series. That was handled very well too, imo. And since we're pointing it out, out of the 3, Worf is of course the non-human.
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Old June 23 2013, 05:41 PM   #583
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

There were practically no human female being in command positions in all the 5 Star Trek series.

I just have a bit of a problem with only 'alien' women being capable of command.
Obviously the producers of Star Trek were doubling by having women and aliens being represented in one position.

And I doubt DS9 passes the Bechel Test because I'm sure Bechel was talking about human women.

I'm not really saying DS9 or VOY were sexist. That would be ridiculous. Just that there were not many human females who even temporarily commanded a Starship/Space Station.

Just as in original BSG/Star Wars only men could be pilots

Yes and Keiko was a teacher but I'm talking about having women in charge (not just of O'Brien) just like Kira was at times. Why couldn't they have a human woman in charge of a ship ? Aren't human women capable of it? I think even women are allowed to be 'captains' nowadays. Why not in the 23rd/24th century?

Even some of the 'alien' women who were in command positions were not Starfleet (Kira and T'Pol) or once a man (Dax)
I'm sounding like Janice Lester now.
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Old June 23 2013, 05:45 PM   #584
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
And I doubt DS9 passes the Bechel Test because I'm sure Bechel was talking about human women.
Like it makes a hell of a difference if there are some spots on the skin or ribs on a nose.
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Old June 23 2013, 06:13 PM   #585
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
However, doyou accept that it is a franchise that has more gender balance?
Does it count as "gender balance" when slightly more than a third of the female characters are exemplars of gender stereotypes?
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