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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 20 2013, 05:02 PM   #436
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
The Marcus underwear scene was actually an insult to men's intelligence. It's inclusion indicates that men won't like movies unless they have a bit of naked women in it.
No, just that men like movies BETTER when they have naked women in them.

OTOH, if Carol Marcus had come aboard the Enterprise BEFORE the mission to Nibiru, it might not even be an issue. Just replace the underwear with a bikini and Kirk wouldn't even have to turn around.

JJ obviously respects the intelligence of women more as he felt he didn't need to include the Cumberbatch shower scene to attract the ladies
Or the men, for that matter.
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Old June 20 2013, 05:12 PM   #437
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
The Marcus underwear scene was actually an insult to men's intelligence. It's inclusion indicates that men won't like movies unless they have a bit of naked women in it.
Again with the hyperbole. She wasn't naked.

And, nonsense.

Whether I like movie X with scene Y cut itself has no direct bearing on whether I'd also like movie X with scene Y uncut, and vice versa. Exercising my intellect is not the sole reason I go to see movies.

Nice try, though, in attempting to speak for all men, and in suggesting that men who like the movie as-is with the scene uncut aren't intelligent.
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Old June 20 2013, 06:33 PM   #438
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I have the solution to the problem though.
Men in one ship. Women in another.
Then there'll be no yucky kissing or holding hands or carrying on in either ship. A lot more work will be done. And the Federation will be a lot better off
Which is the exact premise of my Fem Trekz show, which is to some degree a reaction against the unprofessional animal-house atmosphere established in JJ Trek.
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Old June 20 2013, 06:36 PM   #439
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

mos6507 wrote: View Post
...which is to some degree a reaction against the unprofessional animal-house atmosphere established in JJ Trek.
This is, without a doubt, the dumbest thing I've ever read on these boards. That is really saying something.
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Old June 20 2013, 07:03 PM   #440
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
It was full frontal and was a full body shot but it wasn't a full frontal nude shot. I don't think anybody discussing the scene thinks that it was nude...
I don't think they (or you) do either. But I do think you and others have worked yourself into quite a fervor over this scene, and it's reflected in the exaggerated language you use to describe it.
I don't know how many times I can say I wasn't that bothered by it. Yes it was gratuitous, yes it was blatant titillation but meh. I do understand why some women and some men roll their eyes at it though.

My issue is over the wider deployment of women in the franchise as a whole.

Even Game of Thrones, which is set in an incredibly sexist, quasi-medieval setting has a far better ratio of men to women than Trek. Most of them are nominally defined by their relationship to a male character and a good number of them may be whores (albeit that some of them are very interesting and well rounded whores, in more ways than one) but the whores blend in with a diverse range of other female characters.

There is an astonishing amount of gratuitous nudity of both sexes in that show (a lot more women than men admittedly) largely for the purposes of titillation but sometimes to underscore just how vulnerable these women are in a patriarchal society. I still think that, given the limits of its setting, GoT has a much better approach to women than Trek currently does.
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Old June 20 2013, 07:07 PM   #441
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
For starters, I thinks it's silly that Keenser is an officer, let alone the assistant chief purely because of he is portrayed and treated in the movies and comics. I suppose one could argue that he's the same as Morn, who allegedly never shut up off-screen...
So mute aliens should be banned from being in Starfleet?

In any case, we do hear Keenser speaking an alien language when Kirk arrives at the complex, and Keenser does say "Me", in English, to Scotty in the 2009 film.

The comics don't really count for movie audiences because they're only bought by about 1% of the audience.
Lol - an officer has to be able to do the job of an officer. How can he give orders if he has no way to communicate? My issue is with the way Keenser is portrayed as a joke alien. If he were portrayed in a way that demonstrated he could do the job, I'd be fine. He doesn't even use a universal translator.

As you know, I have the same issue with Chekov, as portrayed, being assigned as security chief in TMP for similar reasons. I'm not laying this down as a JJ-specific issue.
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Old June 20 2013, 07:17 PM   #442
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
He doesn't even use a universal translator.
Why would he need too? We see him twice use English words in Star Trek 2009.
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Old June 20 2013, 07:25 PM   #443
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
He doesn't even use a universal translator.
Why would he need too? We see him twice use English words in Star Trek 2009.
This is in the context of whether Keenser as portrayed would make a good senior officer. I assumed he was a crewman or petty officer because he looks and behaves like a grease monkey and Scotty verbally abuses him all the time. He barely speaks, but Therin says he speaks an alien tongue, so that was the context of the comment.

Rather than saying, he is, therefore he does, I'm interested to know what evidence we can see on screen to support the notion that Keenser would make a good assistant chief engineer (i.e. a subjective opinion based on the visual evidence).
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Old June 20 2013, 07:26 PM   #444
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
The Marcus underwear scene was actually an insult to men's intelligence. It's inclusion indicates that men won't like movies unless they have a bit of naked women in it.
Again with the hyperbole. She wasn't naked.

And, nonsense.

Whether I like movie X with scene Y cut itself has no direct bearing on whether I'd also like movie X with scene Y uncut, and vice versa. Exercising my intellect is not the sole reason I go to see movies.

Nice try, though, in attempting to speak for all men, and in suggesting that men who like the movie as-is with the scene uncut aren't intelligent.
I suspect that CommishSleer's post may not have been entirely serious, but YMMV.

BillJ wrote: View Post
mos6507 wrote: View Post
...which is to some degree a reaction against the unprofessional animal-house atmosphere established in JJ Trek.
This is, without a doubt, the dumbest thing I've ever read on these boards. That is really saying something.
The dumbest ever? I doubt it; I really do. This forum alone, in its brief existence, has seen some world-class displays of dumb, and on the dumb scale I don't think the above even rates a mention.
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Old June 20 2013, 07:31 PM   #445
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
It was full frontal and was a full body shot but it wasn't a full frontal nude shot. I don't think anybody discussing the scene thinks that it was nude...
I don't think they (or you) do either. But I do think you and others have worked yourself into quite a fervor over this scene, and it's reflected in the exaggerated language you use to describe it.
I don't know how many times I can say I wasn't that bothered by it. Yes it was gratuitous, yes it was blatant titillation but meh.
Can you say, 'Yes, it was also about Carol dressing down Kirk for his sexist leering'?
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Old June 20 2013, 07:35 PM   #446
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

mos6507 wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I have the solution to the problem though.
Men in one ship. Women in another.
Then there'll be no yucky kissing or holding hands or carrying on in either ship. A lot more work will be done. And the Federation will be a lot better off
Which is the exact premise of my Fem Trekz show, which is to some degree a reaction against the unprofessional animal-house atmosphere established in JJ Trek.
So basically, what you've done is change Roddenberry's egalitarian views because you don't like Spock & Uhura getting it on in the movies. Fascinating.

Last edited by Shaka Zulu; June 20 2013 at 08:20 PM.
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Old June 20 2013, 07:46 PM   #447
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

If the gender roles were completely flipped in Trek so that we have only one black dude and a blond scientist among the main cast I wonder how people would react to the gender balance?
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Old June 20 2013, 07:49 PM   #448
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
As you know, I have the same issue with Chekov, as portrayed, being assigned as security chief in TMP for similar reasons.
And with Rand as the transporter chief, too?
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Old June 20 2013, 07:52 PM   #449
BillJ
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
If the gender roles were completely flipped in Trek so that we have only one black dude and a blond scientist among the main cast I wonder how people would react to the gender balance?
Is it still fun and entertaining? If so, then I'm there.
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Old June 20 2013, 07:56 PM   #450
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
The Marcus underwear scene was actually an insult to men's intelligence. It's inclusion indicates that men won't like movies unless they have a bit of naked women in it.
Again with the hyperbole. She wasn't naked.

And, nonsense.

Whether I like movie X with scene Y cut itself has no direct bearing on whether I'd also like movie X with scene Y uncut, and vice versa. Exercising my intellect is not the sole reason I go to see movies.

Nice try, though, in attempting to speak for all men, and in suggesting that men who like the movie as-is with the scene uncut aren't intelligent.
I suspect that CommishSleer's post may not have been entirely serious, but YMMV.
Yeah, I think mileage does vary.

Obviously, the proposal of segregation wasn't serious. That paragraph had a clear set-up for the joke, in its opening line, too.

However, use of the word "actually" in the part I quoted kinda trumped other interpretations in that part, to me.

CommishSleer, were you serious or joking?
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