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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 19 2013, 02:53 AM   #361
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
I'd bet there was one reason and one reason only why Chekov was written to take over for Scotty in this movie: it was a nod to the old fandom explanation for why Khan recognized Chekov in TWOK even though he wasn't on the show at the time of "Space Seed," namely that he was a member of the crew but was working in engineering at the time and thus not seen on the bridge. Nudge nudge, wink wink.
I thought it might be a nod to LaForge going from Conn Officer to Chief of Engineering.

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post

There is a short scene where Kirk ask Chekov about him following Scotty like a puppy for the last months.
There, mission accomplished.
The audience learned everything they need to know to accept Chekov in engineering.
Ah, yeah, okay. So, remember, if you ever need major surgery to let the fresh intern do it because he's bright and he shadowed the head surgeon for a few months... Makes sense.

Me personally? I'm going with the next best skilled surgeon that works in the surgery/operation department and has been doing it for years.
As I mentioned above, Picard made Geordi, a Lt jg, his chief engineer and Worf, also a Lt jg, his Security Chief, even though neither one were assigned to those departments. Were there not officers in the Engineering and Security Departments that had more experience? Or perhaps it just made more sense to use existing characters in those roles?
Good points. Quite so.
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Old June 19 2013, 02:55 AM   #362
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
I'd bet there was one reason and one reason only why Chekov was written to take over for Scotty in this movie: it was a nod to the old fandom explanation for why Khan recognized Chekov in TWOK even though he wasn't on the show at the time of "Space Seed," namely that he was a member of the crew but was working in engineering at the time and thus not seen on the bridge. Nudge nudge, wink wink.
I thought it might be a nod to LaForge going from Conn Officer to Chief of Engineering.

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post

There is a short scene where Kirk ask Chekov about him following Scotty like a puppy for the last months.
There, mission accomplished.
The audience learned everything they need to know to accept Chekov in engineering.
Ah, yeah, okay. So, remember, if you ever need major surgery to let the fresh intern do it because he's bright and he shadowed the head surgeon for a few months... Makes sense.

Me personally? I'm going with the next best skilled surgeon that works in the surgery/operation department and has been doing it for years.
As I mentioned above, Picard made Geordi, a Lt jg, his chief engineer and Worf, also a Lt jg, his Security Chief, even though neither one were assigned to those departments. Were there not officers in the Engineering and Security Departments that had more experience? Or perhaps it just made more sense to use existing characters in those roles?
How dare you bring up something that happened in the past to support something that happens in a movie that obviously HATES women!
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Old June 19 2013, 03:13 AM   #363
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
I'd bet there was one reason and one reason only why Chekov was written to take over for Scotty in this movie: it was a nod to the old fandom explanation for why Khan recognized Chekov in TWOK even though he wasn't on the show at the time of "Space Seed," namely that he was a member of the crew but was working in engineering at the time and thus not seen on the bridge. Nudge nudge, wink wink.
I thought it might be a nod to LaForge going from Conn Officer to Chief of Engineering.

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post

Ah, yeah, okay. So, remember, if you ever need major surgery to let the fresh intern do it because he's bright and he shadowed the head surgeon for a few months... Makes sense.

Me personally? I'm going with the next best skilled surgeon that works in the surgery/operation department and has been doing it for years.
As I mentioned above, Picard made Geordi, a Lt jg, his chief engineer and Worf, also a Lt jg, his Security Chief, even though neither one were assigned to those departments. Were there not officers in the Engineering and Security Departments that had more experience? Or perhaps it just made more sense to use existing characters in those roles?
How dare you bring up something that happened in the past to support something that happens in a movie that obviously HATES women!
Especially when they replaced a woman in a primary position (chief of security) with a man.
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Old June 19 2013, 05:26 AM   #364
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
I'd bet there was one reason and one reason only why Chekov was written to take over for Scotty in this movie: it was a nod to the old fandom explanation for why Khan recognized Chekov in TWOK even though he wasn't on the show at the time of "Space Seed," namely that he was a member of the crew but was working in engineering at the time and thus not seen on the bridge. Nudge nudge, wink wink.
I thought it might be a nod to LaForge going from Conn Officer to Chief of Engineering.

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post

There is a short scene where Kirk ask Chekov about him following Scotty like a puppy for the last months.
There, mission accomplished.
The audience learned everything they need to know to accept Chekov in engineering.
Ah, yeah, okay. So, remember, if you ever need major surgery to let the fresh intern do it because he's bright and he shadowed the head surgeon for a few months... Makes sense.

Me personally? I'm going with the next best skilled surgeon that works in the surgery/operation department and has been doing it for years.
As I mentioned above, Picard made Geordi, a Lt jg, his chief engineer and Worf, also a Lt jg, his Security Chief, even though neither one were assigned to those departments. Were there not officers in the Engineering and Security Departments that had more experience? Or perhaps it just made more sense to use existing characters in those roles?
Geordi becoming an engineering genius overnight in TNG really annoys me. Not even just taking over engineering because Picard needed a good officer there but becoming a genius in one day. In fact it takes me right out of TNG.
Actually I'm not even joking about that.

In TOS, Scotty never seemed to have anyone who could take over for him. Just a whole bunch of juniors. I used to think he was the most important person on the ship because if something happened to him there was nobody to take over. And at least Chekov wasn't suddenly an expert overnight. Look after 25 years I'm still not over the Geordi thing!
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Old June 19 2013, 05:39 AM   #365
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

teacake wrote: View Post
JJ is reading it right now and planning a BIG conversation between Marcus and Uhurua in 3 all about their periods.
I think (and hope) that he'll do something a bit better than showing Carol Marcus half naked. Perhaps he'll have Uhura not focus on Spock so much, or have her be chief of security.

Last edited by Shaka Zulu; June 19 2013 at 06:43 AM.
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Old June 19 2013, 05:47 AM   #366
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

They should make Uhura a part of Starfleet Intelligence and Spock does not know. Wasn't she in S.I. in the books?
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Old June 19 2013, 06:17 AM   #367
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
JJ is reading it right now and planning a BIG conversation between Marcus and Uhurua in 3 all about their periods.
I think (and hope) that he'll do something a bit better than showing Carol Marcus half naked. Perhaps he'll have Uhura not focus on Spock, or have her be chief of security.
Not sure you can go the Full Marcus in a PG-13 film.
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Old June 19 2013, 06:31 AM   #368
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

teacake wrote: View Post
They should make Uhura a part of Starfleet Intelligence and Spock does not know. Wasn't she in S.I. in the books?
I said chief of security, not a member of Starfleet Intelligence. That would be consistent with Chekov being made security chief in the Phase II show and TMP based on his knowledge of tactical things, and his being head engineer in the movie. At least Uhura also has the chops to be head of security based on what other training she had during her time at the Academy. Maybe she can become an agent specializing in signals analysis, but that would take her away from being who she is and what she does on the show and in these movies.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Cyrus wrote: View Post
Some of the greatest movies of all time will fail this silly test. Lawrence of Arabia for sure will fail since there are no women characters in it. Does 2001 A Space Odyssey pass the test?
Originally the Bechdel Test was just supposed to be a thought experiment about gender equality and gender roles in film in general, not a specific measure of any single film's sexism or lack thereof. Incredibly misogynistic films can sometimes "pass" the test while much more enlightened films can "fail" it for any number of factors (certain historical films like you mentioned, for instance, or Star Trek where you're dealing with an established --mostly male-- main cast). There's even a disclaimer to this effect on the website.

Unfortunately, as time went on people kind of missed that point and started using it as a sort of sexism pass/fail test for every major individual film that came out, which it was never intended to be.
If Ms. Bechdel and anybody else ever wanted/intended to change things in the film & television industry by publishing this list, what they need to encourage young women to do is to decide to be in the film & television industry and not let anything stop them. Also, they need to tell young women to study film making and script writing as a major, not the useless shit they usually go to college to study (and then end up with no job other than service ones afterward.) Then instead of having to worry about what films don't have enough women, they can write and create ones (maybe ones for the major studios that are released during the summer!) that do have a lot of women doing something (even if it's just talking to each other.)
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Old June 19 2013, 07:10 AM   #369
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
They should make Uhura a part of Starfleet Intelligence and Spock does not know. Wasn't she in S.I. in the books?
I said chief of security, not a member of Starfleet Intelligence. That would be consistent with Chekov being made security chief in the Phase II show and TMP based on his knowledge of tactical things, and his being head engineer in the movie. At least Uhura also has the chops to be head of security based on what other training she had during her time at the Academy. Maybe she can become an agent specializing in signals analysis, but that would take her away from being who she is and what she does on the show and in these movies.
Not according to the novels where she kicks ass as S.I.

And you know I'm not arguing with your point about her being chief of security, I'm not even replying to it. I just posted I think it would be a cool extra development for her character.
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Old June 19 2013, 08:14 AM   #370
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

I just thought I'd throw this out there again:

That Carol Marcus was shown in her undies was as gratuitous as it gets; that she needed to be in her undies is not. She had to take off one uniform to put on another, and Kirk was being a dirty old man and peeking, while bringing the audience along for the ride.
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Old June 19 2013, 08:22 AM   #371
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

FormerLurker wrote: View Post
I just thought I'd throw this out there again:

That Carol Marcus was shown in her undies was as gratuitous as it gets; that she needed to be in her undies is not. She had to take off one uniform to put on another, and Kirk was being a dirty old man and peeking, while bringing the audience along for the ride.
And who covered their eyes to avoid this gratuitous scene the second time they watched the movie?
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Old June 19 2013, 08:42 AM   #372
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
The Chippendales Signal?
You realise that Deney Terrio and his blond Chippendales were Khan's extras in ST II?
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Old June 19 2013, 08:44 AM   #373
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
I'd bet there was one reason and one reason only why Chekov was written to take over for Scotty in this movie: it was a nod to the old fandom explanation for why Khan recognized Chekov in TWOK even though he wasn't on the show at the time of "Space Seed," namely that he was a member of the crew but was working in engineering at the time and thus not seen on the bridge. Nudge nudge, wink wink.
I thought it might be a nod to LaForge going from Conn Officer to Chief of Engineering.

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post

There is a short scene where Kirk ask Chekov about him following Scotty like a puppy for the last months.
There, mission accomplished.
The audience learned everything they need to know to accept Chekov in engineering.
Ah, yeah, okay. So, remember, if you ever need major surgery to let the fresh intern do it because he's bright and he shadowed the head surgeon for a few months... Makes sense.

Me personally? I'm going with the next best skilled surgeon that works in the surgery/operation department and has been doing it for years.
As I mentioned above, Picard made Geordi, a Lt jg, his chief engineer and Worf, also a Lt jg, his Security Chief, even though neither one were assigned to those departments. Were there not officers in the Engineering and Security Departments that had more experience? Or perhaps it just made more sense to use existing characters in those roles?
The point about surgery is exactly correct. The chief needs experience as well as education. Chekov was often shown as a bit of a naive educated idiot. I also thought he was a terrible fit for a security chief, although I will give him a pass as weapons officer in TMP.

I don't think that any of the season one characters of TNG were well-realised in terms of role and not all changes made in season two were for the best - Troi was way more interesting as a key diplomatic advisor to Picard.

The difference with LaForge and Worf is that they were in their twenties with years of experience before joining the Enterprise when they were promoted, although the Geordi was still a wtf moment since all the chief and assistant chiefs in season one were Lt-commanders. I think Brooke Bundy wasn't able to return as the chief due to other work commitments but we had a succession of male guest assistant chiefs after that, which was a shame.

As an aside, I've been watching Defiance, which is doing a really good job of mixing up gender roles and has a lot of women in it, including the balance of the guest stars. Setting aside the fact that it's a series and taking a single episode at a time, it still does a great job of having interesting and varied characters of both genders. It can be done.

And as for the earlier comment that we will only get equal numbers of female characters once the majority of sci fi writers are female... what a stupid thing to say. Not all men are misogynists. Buffy and Alias were produced by men. So was Xena and her show was more popular than her male contemporary, Hercules. Writers just need more awareness of the issue and encouragement to do the right thing.
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Old June 19 2013, 08:45 AM   #374
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
I like to think that Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew were the best actors for the respective jobs. Man or woman, black or white.
Of course, Mulgrew was actually second choice.

Geneviève Bujold

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Not all men are misogynists. Buffy and Alias were produced by men. So was Xena and her show was more popular than her male contemporary, Hercules. Writers just need more awareness of the issue and encouragement to do the right thing.
Not all men are misogynists, but not all storytellers who elect to craft a tale about male characters are misogynists either. Sometimes it's just a creative choice.

You want gender equality, but once that's achieved, do we also aim for reflecting an accurate representation for the world's obese, the Asians, the homosexuals, the blonds, the wheelchair bound, and so on?
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Last edited by Therin of Andor; June 19 2013 at 08:56 AM. Reason: more
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Old June 19 2013, 09:01 AM   #375
Pauln6
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I like to think that Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew were the best actors for the respective jobs. Man or woman, black or white.
Of course, Mulgrew was actually second choice.

Geneviève Bujold

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Not all men are misogynists. Buffy and Alias were produced by men. So was Xena and her show was more popular than her male contemporary, Hercules. Writers just need more awareness of the issue and encouragement to do the right thing.
Not all men are misogynists, but not all storytellers who elect to craft a tale about male characters are misogynists either. Sometimes it's just a creative choice.

You want gender equality, but once that's achieved, do we also aim for reflecting an accurate representation for the world's obese, the Asians, the homosexuals, the blonds, the wheelchair bound, and so on?
We should consider those things, yes, but they are a bit more niche than gender or race. As I've said many times before, the balance of the characters depends on the setting. I wouldn't expect a movie set in a gay bar to have an equal balance of heterosexual males.

Star Trek, however, is set in a utopian future, where equality is espoused. I think they should be doing a better job than they are. And it should not be hard to do a better job than they are.
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