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Old June 5 2013, 10:52 PM   #226
CaptainCanada
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Not really. The truth is that he was a subject who followed the king's orders. Not so cut and dry, but Arya can't understand that. In her little world of honor, she thinks everyone should die or face whatever kind of punishment instead of doing something dishonorable (like her father did), even if they really had no choice. It's the same failure in understanding that lost her older brother the war and got him killed. Most people don't work like that. If he had killed the boy out of his own free will, that would have been one thing, but that's not what happened.
...
Hard as it may be for you, the saying "don't kill the messenger," comes to mind. Be upset with the person who actually caused your problem (i.e. "sent the message"), not the person who had to carry out orders or else. I can understand her anger at Joffrey. He's the reason why her friend died, not the Hound. So far, out of his own free will, he's done more to help children than hurt them.
Really only a meaningful distinction if the Hound personally objected to what he did, but he didn't. He was fine with it, and wryly joked about murdering Mycah, both at the time and years later.
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Old June 5 2013, 11:17 PM   #227
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

Budget wasn't involved in using Talisa rather than Jeyne. The producers simply felt it was better if Robb breaking the alliance with the Freys was an entirely free decision based on twue wuv rather than an issue of honor. If money had been an issue, they wouldn't have ended up featuring the character so prominently and making her a regular this year.
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Old June 5 2013, 11:30 PM   #228
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

Brendan Moody wrote: View Post
Budget wasn't involved in using Talisa rather than Jeyne. The producers simply felt it was better if Robb breaking the alliance with the Freys was an entirely free decision based on twue wuv rather than an issue of honor and the result of a deception. If money had been an issue, they wouldn't have ended up featuring the character so prominently and making her a regular this year.
It is a lot cheaper for them not to have to build sets for the Westerling castle, feature the battle for it, etc. and it means that they don't have to give Cat stuff to do while he is gone.

A single actress is cheap. It isn't like they spent any time developing Talisa anyways. One conversation about where she came from doesn't a character make.

Robb has spent most of the last 2 seasons sitting around camp or sitting around Riverrun. If you don't think that was for budgetary reasons I really don't know what to tell you.
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Old June 5 2013, 11:40 PM   #229
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

Of course the reason they haven't featured more battles and the like is budget. But the basic change in the relationship, from spur-of-the-moment sex to choosing true love over duty, was a decision made because Benioff and Weiss thought that was more dramatically interesting. Bryan Cogman has said so in interviews. They could still have kept the core of the character intact featuring her exactly as often as they did Talisa, in pretty much the same scenes, but they didn't want to. That's my point.
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Old June 5 2013, 11:43 PM   #230
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

I think it could have just as easily worked to keep the character's name but still have her go through the motions that Talissa did without delving too deeply into the Westerling side-story.
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Old June 6 2013, 12:00 AM   #231
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

well, it is still a possibility that they might reveal that next week, which is why I avoided speculating on that point in my previous posts. Might be good to wrap that bit in spoiler tags.
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Old June 6 2013, 12:09 AM   #232
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

Good point. Done.
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Old June 6 2013, 12:14 AM   #233
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

I've edited my posts as well, although the revelation in question isn't going to happen; the mods of Westeros.org have been told as much by reliable sources working on the show. Like the attempt to cast "Podrick Payne, sex god" as an intrigue-driven plot point rather than a juvenile gag, the theory gives the TV show too much credit.
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Old June 6 2013, 01:48 AM   #234
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Not really. The truth is that he was a subject who followed the king's orders. Not so cut and dry, but Arya can't understand that. In her little world of honor, she thinks everyone should die or face whatever kind of punishment instead of doing something dishonorable (like her father did), even if they really had no choice. It's the same failure in understanding that lost her older brother the war and got him killed. Most people don't work like that. If he had killed the boy out of his own free will, that would have been one thing, but that's not what happened.
...
Hard as it may be for you, the saying "don't kill the messenger," comes to mind. Be upset with the person who actually caused your problem (i.e. "sent the message"), not the person who had to carry out orders or else. I can understand her anger at Joffrey. He's the reason why her friend died, not the Hound. So far, out of his own free will, he's done more to help children than hurt them.
Really only a meaningful distinction if the Hound personally objected to what he did, but he didn't. He was fine with it, and wryly joked about murdering Mycah, both at the time and years later.
This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen defended.

Yeah he had no regrets at all and he mocks Arya for her feelings over him killing her friend. But she's supposed to not hate him because he was ordered to do it? Are we talking about robots here?
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Old June 6 2013, 02:02 AM   #235
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Not really. The truth is that he was a subject who followed the king's orders. Not so cut and dry, but Arya can't understand that. In her little world of honor, she thinks everyone should die or face whatever kind of punishment instead of doing something dishonorable (like her father did), even if they really had no choice. It's the same failure in understanding that lost her older brother the war and got him killed. Most people don't work like that. If he had killed the boy out of his own free will, that would have been one thing, but that's not what happened.
...
Hard as it may be for you, the saying "don't kill the messenger," comes to mind. Be upset with the person who actually caused your problem (i.e. "sent the message"), not the person who had to carry out orders or else. I can understand her anger at Joffrey. He's the reason why her friend died, not the Hound. So far, out of his own free will, he's done more to help children than hurt them.
Really only a meaningful distinction if the Hound personally objected to what he did, but he didn't. He was fine with it, and wryly joked about murdering Mycah, both at the time and years later.
I don't know that he's fine with it or not fine with it. He's a warrior and the subject of the "king." The distinction would be if he killed children after he left Joffrey and thought it was okay, which he hasn't done.

I'm not saying he's a great person, just that he's not the reason why her friend is dead. He's just not.


teacake wrote: View Post
CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Not really. The truth is that he was a subject who followed the king's orders. Not so cut and dry, but Arya can't understand that. In her little world of honor, she thinks everyone should die or face whatever kind of punishment instead of doing something dishonorable (like her father did), even if they really had no choice. It's the same failure in understanding that lost her older brother the war and got him killed. Most people don't work like that. If he had killed the boy out of his own free will, that would have been one thing, but that's not what happened.
...
Hard as it may be for you, the saying "don't kill the messenger," comes to mind. Be upset with the person who actually caused your problem (i.e. "sent the message"), not the person who had to carry out orders or else. I can understand her anger at Joffrey. He's the reason why her friend died, not the Hound. So far, out of his own free will, he's done more to help children than hurt them.
Really only a meaningful distinction if the Hound personally objected to what he did, but he didn't. He was fine with it, and wryly joked about murdering Mycah, both at the time and years later.
This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen defended.

Yeah he had no regrets at all and he mocks Arya for her feelings over him killing her friend. But she's supposed to not hate him because he was ordered to do it? Are we talking about robots here?
It's not a defense. It is simply stating a fact.

And no, we're not talking about robots here. I didn't really take him answering her as mocking.
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Old June 6 2013, 02:07 AM   #236
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

They've done Sandor a terrible disservice in the show. He is barely a character, much less one you can apply a morality to. It is best not to dwell on him too long.
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Old June 6 2013, 02:10 AM   #237
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

How hard is it to understand why a child would hate a man who kills her friend?
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Old June 6 2013, 02:12 AM   #238
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

The Hound killed the butcher's boy because of the Prince's orders. It was an evil act, but disobeying Joffrey might have meant his own death.

The only way Arya's friend could have been saved if Robert or Cersei had gone over Joffrey's head and ordered the Hound not to do it. Cersei didn't give a shit about the death, and Robert lets his son get away with everything.

I don't blame the Hound or Arya for hating him for the murder. The boy was doomed the moment Joffrey set his eyes on him.
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Old June 6 2013, 02:15 AM   #239
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

Joffrey never ordered the Hound to kill Mycah. The Hound was order to find him. The killing was of his own accord. He's said on more than one occasion that he enjoys killing, and has shown no remorse for his actions. There is nothing to absolve him of his crimes.
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Old June 6 2013, 02:20 AM   #240
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Re: Game of Thrones 3.9 - "The Rains of Castamere" - Rate and discuss

There's no way Sandor's life would have been in danger if he'd declined to kill Mycah. Robert was the ultimate authority at that point, and despite his many moral failings he would hardly have had someone executed for declining to kill one child on the orders of another, or even on Cersei's orders, if any such orders were actually given. Sandor might have wound up dismissed from Joffrey's service, but it's not like no other occupations were available for a strong, skilled fighter. He killed Mycah because, at that point, he had no real moral compass, not because he was utterly without options.
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