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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old June 17 2013, 11:19 PM   #76
Robert Comsol
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

B.J. wrote: View Post
It's their flagship? Interesting what that could possibly mean.
Presumably that it's state-of-the-art Romulan technology and that it's an honor for the flagship to test the new plasma weapon and/or the cloaking device.

However, I can't see what's so "glorious" about their mission.
Essentially they are shooting at sitting ducks (the United Earth outposts on asteroids).

I assume that the Romulans (like the Vulcans) felt it extremely offensive that some aliens were monitoring their "private" affairs, thus the whole mission wasn't to start a possible new war but simply remove something the Romulans considered a thorn in their side (but then, that's something Spock should have been able to understand and mention it...).

Bob
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Old June 17 2013, 11:52 PM   #77
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

^There may also have been glory in being able to enter Federation territory after so many years and cause enough of a disruption that Earth sends its own prized vessel to stop your new flagship. Your best against their best.

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Old June 17 2013, 11:56 PM   #78
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

B.J. wrote: View Post
I also found this line interesting:
DECIUS: We are beaten. Can it be true? The Praetor's finest and proudest flagship beaten.
It's their flagship? Interesting what that could possibly mean.
That is interesting. I'm not sure what it means either. Maybe the BOP wasn't completely finished when it went for its first mission, but the Praetor wanted to test it before outfitting the ship with more systems. Other vessels of its kind are seen later in the series (as well as Klingon ships outfitted with Romulan cloaking devices), so it's possible they have more features than the original ship had.

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Old June 18 2013, 12:17 AM   #79
publiusr
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

I just think the RoM BoP was like the refit at the start of TMP. It wasn't ready for warp, and so only the impulse deck was active. I think it was towed near targets by a larger, but more primative vessel to observe its run.
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Old June 18 2013, 10:54 AM   #80
Timo
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

It's their flagship?
No - it's the Praetor's.

And in the "full-blown", republican/imperial Roman model, the Praetor isn't the head of state - he's one of the following:

- General of an army, especially in the campaign organizing phase
- Highly positioned judge
- Elected official for any of a range of duties
- Provincial governor

These folks would be highly competitive, trying to further their position and wealth by a variety of schemes, popular among them the fostering of a war with an eminently defeatable opponent.

A Praetor might well have a relatively humble flagship for his current scheme, in comparison with the standard Republican or Imperial fare. OTOH, much would hinge on the mission of this ship, and glory would be the one decisive dividend; victory or other tactical benefit would be less important.

OTOH, a successful Praetor would no doubt have a long string of flagships for his long string of schemes, the latest always being the proudest and finest...

I wonder whether this particular Praetor got a boost for his career from the successful challenging and destruction of the outposts? Or a negative response to his exposing the secret Romulan capacity for invisibility to the enemy?

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Old June 18 2013, 01:52 PM   #81
blssdwlf
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Does that mean that this individual Praetor (competing with other Praetors) can unilaterally start a war for all of the Romulan Empire to get sucked into?

COMMANDER: I think you do. No need to tell you what happens when we reach home with proof of the Earthmen's weakness. And we will have proof. The Earth commander will follow. He must. When he attacks, we will destroy him. Our gift to the homeland, another war.

Or is the Romulan Praetor the actual emperor?
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Old June 18 2013, 03:07 PM   #82
Timo
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Does that mean that this individual Praetor (competing with other Praetors) can unilaterally start a war for all of the Romulan Empire to get sucked into?
That would be a classic thing for Praetors to do. The Roman Empire was constantly in a state of war against all sorts of opponents, especially in the "peaceful" times (where peace arose from bountiful war booty), and it didn't really take the deliberations of the government to get those wars started...

Or is the Romulan Praetor the actual emperor?
This is possible as well, if he's the equivalent of the Roman "Praetor Maximus", the alternate name for the dictator-for-a-day that was elected to solve major problems and ruled sovereign through a crisis. OTOH, Q once referred to the Romulan Empress, suggesting a more straightforward title was in use at least at some point of the Romulan history.

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Old June 19 2013, 12:55 PM   #83
Robert Comsol
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Sorry, but remembering references to "praetor" in TNG it sounded like he was the head of the Romulan Star Empire and the producers probably went for a title that definitely had Roman allusions (i.e. "praetor" instead of "emperor").

@ publiusr

Sounds like a great idea to me and is possibly the analogy the producers had in mind!

The whole Romulan mission in "Balance of Terror" reminded me a lot of the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo during WW II.

While a bigger Romulan carrier ship would have been detected, a small few man fighter (...) could have penetrated the Earth Outpost defense line and did so.

This could / would also explain the sole use of impulse power for that small vessel if there was a warp-capable mothership waiting to pick it up upon return. Ain't that an explanation that could make everyone happy?

Bob
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Old June 19 2013, 06:00 PM   #84
Crazyewok
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

feek61 wrote: View Post
As I said earlier (post #55), in TMOST on page 191 it DOES say that "impulse engines" are STL. I believe that portion of the book came straight from the writers guide. In any case it seems clear by that quote that impulse=STL. There is no documentation that indicates anything different.
It wrong because it stupid.

The Romulans have to have some way of going faster than light or they would not get anyway let alone be able to start a d earth/romulan war!
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Old June 19 2013, 06:31 PM   #85
Elvira
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

^^^ QFT.

The Romulans had to of had a warp drive, otherwise they would be essentually a meaningless fourth rate power at best.

The events seen in ST: Enterprise would make no sense without the Romulans possessing the means to travel reasonable quickly between star systems.

Sran wrote: View Post
... as well as Klingon ships outfitted with Romulan cloaking devices
Was it ever clearly stated that the Klingons obtain their cloaking device from the Romulans?

During TNG, starfleet could on occasion detect cloaked Romulan ships, but (iirc) couldn't do the same with cloaked Klingon ships. Suggesting that Romulan and Klingon cloaks work somehow differently, and are two separate inventions.

The Dominion also possessed cloaking devices aboard their ships, and obviously didn't get their's from the Romulans.

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Old June 19 2013, 07:51 PM   #86
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

I agree it's stupid and I'm not talking about "real world" applications. I frickin' understand the distances involved; the speed of light; etc. I have studied astronomy for over 40 years; I get it! What I am saying is that in the land of TV production it was meant to be STL (after all guys, this is a TV show, not science). There is no disagreement here that it is not practical unless there was a FTL mothership someplace nearby but we didn't see that. I know what the script says, I know what the writers guide says and I know what is said in the episode and ALL of those things point to STL. Just because you think that is wrong doesn't change the facts.
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Old June 19 2013, 08:00 PM   #87
Sran
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

T'Girl wrote:
During TNG, starfleet could on occasion detect cloaked Romulan ships, but (iirc) couldn't do the same with cloaked Klingon ships. Suggesting that Romulan and Klingon cloaks work somehow differently, and are two separate inventions.
You could be right. I always thought that was due to whomever wrote the story for each episode.


T'Girl wrote:
The Dominion also possessed cloaking devices aboard their ships, and obviously didn't get their's from the Romulans.
They did? When did this happen?

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Old June 19 2013, 08:12 PM   #88
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Sran wrote: View Post
They did? When did this happen?
When the Dominion ships used to emerge from the wormhole without DS9 realizing it, all they saw was the wormhole opening and closing without reason.

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Old June 19 2013, 08:22 PM   #89
Timo
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

The Romulans have to have some way of going faster than light or they would not get anyway let alone be able to start a d earth/romulan war!
But as discussed, this is a completely separate issue from whether the ship in "BoT" has FTL or not. This particular vessel could be incapable of interstellar warfare, but this is of zero relevance because the vessel is vital in the first step towards interstellar warfare: breaking out of the chain of Earth fortresses. That part can be done by a sublight vessel, in the model where the distances on that mysterious map are very short.

It's only "The Deadly Years" that gives this ship type significant FTL capabilities, certainly enough to discredit the "BoT" idea that the hero ship could run rings around the Romulan type. Evolution of the design or not? Well, even in "BoT", the hero ship does not outfly the enemy by much.

Was it ever clearly stated that the Klingons obtain their cloaking device from the Romulans?
It was never even clearly stated that there would have been an alliance between the two; the closest they ever come is in "Reunion", where Riker contemplates the possibility of a "new" alliance between the powers as the consequence of Duras duplicity.

The Dominion also possessed cloaking devices aboard their ships
But did they? We never, uh, saw an invisible Dominion ship. This IMHO is good indication that they indeed operated cloakships, but it's certainly no proof.

Jem'Hadar invisibility works very well at medium distances, and can be used to hide people, their clothing and their weapons alike, but whether it could hide ships in space...

Oh, and almost forgot:

remembering references to "praetor" in TNG
But there are no references to Praetor in TNG.

The highest leader referred to in TNG, apart from the obscure "Romulan Empress" thing, is the Proconsul. His exact slot in the hierarchy is unclear. In Roman terms, he'd be the Consul's representative in the provinces, the Consul being the very highest authority in the Republic; the representative's title survived the transition to the Empire and the discontinuation of the Consul position.

DS9 is the show where Praetor is finally mentioned, in this intel briefing:

"Neral. Formerly Proconsul and now Praetor of the Romulan Star Empire. Neral's ascension to the top post was confirmed by the Continuing Committee a little over a year ago."
Whether "the top post" means head of state or just what it says, a top post (that is, a highly placed job among others) is not semantically clear from the above. Again comparing to the Roman model, a Proconsul might become a Praetor; getting to serve as Proconsul would usually mean he had already been Consul previously, so any career move would be a move down anyway, and Praetor would be an attractive option. (In practice, you'd have to be a long-lived Romulan to enjoy such career succession, though.)

In ST:NEM, Shinzon also assumes the title Praetor, through assassinating and succeeding another Praetor who presided over Senate sessions. We don't really learn whether Shinzon declared himself the absolute top leader, or whether he upheld the usual coup tradition where the Colonel who topples the civilian government just declares himself General...

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Old June 19 2013, 08:35 PM   #90
Crazyewok
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

feek61 wrote: View Post
I know what the script says, I know what the writers guide says
And it aload of crap. And if it not on the TV or movie screen its not official cannon anyway.

feek61 wrote: View Post
and I know what is said in the episode and ALL of those things point to STL.
Except some how they got to there destination? Ok maybe they had a mothership somewhere. But its pretty clear they didnt travel there from Romulus on there own at only sublight speeds as a ship that would take dozens of years to get from one system to the next is stragicaly useless against a Federation fleet of warp capable ships.

feek61 wrote: View Post
Just because you think that is wrong doesn't change the facts.
Sometimes the startrek Writers and especially Gene Rodenberry had massive lapses in judgement and writting ability. When that happen its needs retconing or ignoreing.
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