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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old June 5 2013, 05:17 PM   #31
blssdwlf
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
But that's different from being propelled by the "weather." A nuclear aircraft carrier tracks the weather ahead, but not because her propulsion depends on it.
True that ships are not propelled by the weather. However I was commenting on Timo's "The thing is, though, the environment never seems to play any role in starship propulsion. Our heroes never discuss "winds" of any sort, or subspace density, or even gravity..." which isn't true.

The Valiant got swept out to edge or slightly outside of the galaxy by space weather (ion storm). The Galileo 7 got pulled abruptly to a nearby star system by a magnetic effect from the Murasaki 312. In TOS, space weather can play a role in a ship's flight path and speed. And if their engines aren't strong enough or turned off, they can be swept around by it.
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Old June 5 2013, 05:43 PM   #32
J.T.B.
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
True that ships are not propelled by the weather. However I was commenting on Timo's "The thing is, though, the environment never seems to play any role in starship propulsion. Our heroes never discuss "winds" of any sort, or subspace density, or even gravity..." which isn't true.
OK, the way I read the quote he's referring to "space weather" affecting or contributing to the actual propulsion of the vessel, not speed or course.

Justin
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Old June 5 2013, 06:14 PM   #33
The Badger
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

T'Girl wrote: View Post
I do wonder f there is a important difference between "powered by impulse," and possessing "impulse power."

Just a impulse engine?

A warp drive powered by impulse?

A valid idea. The matter/anti-matter reactor which provides power for Star Fleet vessels is typically referred to as the 'warp core'. Perhaps Romulan ships of this era did not have such a power source, instead relying on less powerful and efficient substitutes? The fusion reactors that power the impulse drive, perhaps.

Indeed, if the warp engines can be powered from the fusion systems, this would explain how the damaged Enterprise could travel to Delta Vega in 'Where No Man Has Gone Before'.
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Old June 5 2013, 06:27 PM   #34
T'Girl
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Albertese wrote: View Post
... Really it seems like it's just a device that makes the shields do something different than usual.
It's unclear if the cloaking device was connected in any way to the Romulans shields. Years back though, I did propose that what a cloak was was basically a "inside out" shield, instead of keeping certain energy's out, it keep them inside the shield "bubble."

That why it was a innovation when the klingon figure how to fire torpedoes without dropping the cloak.

Also why in Generation when the BoP started to cloak, it's regular shields went down.


J.T.B. wrote: View Post
A nuclear aircraft carrier tracks the weather ahead, but not because her propulsion depends on it.
Knowing which direction the wind is coming from does assist in the launching of aircraft.

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Old June 6 2013, 12:48 PM   #35
Timo
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

...And even a TV show about a good old-fashioned destroyer that doesn't carry any fragile aircraft might involve dialogue about the wind affecting the ship. And a TV show about airline pilots would definitely include constant commentary on wind - not just dangerous storm fronts, but the constant effect of wind on fuel consumption or course correction.

But the thing I was commenting on was that no such dialogue is found in Trek. There's no "windage" as such, merely caution expressed on rare encounters with "space tornadoes". There's no benefit from a "tailwind" and no penalty from a "headwind" in dialogue, only the rare panic when a "subspace sandbar" drastically alters the environmental impact on propulsion.

Of course, who knows what Chekov or Wes Crusher are actually doing when navigating the ship through seemingly featureless space? Perhaps they are constantly correcting for environmental factors, but never bothering to inform their CO about it? It's just that since there is no dialogue on that, it would be unwise to put too much significance on environmental factors in starship propulsion. If the selection of a course truly depended on what the "weather" looks like ahead, we would have to hear about it way more often.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old June 6 2013, 02:17 PM   #36
blssdwlf
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Timo wrote: View Post
But the thing I was commenting on was that no such dialogue is found in Trek. There's no "windage" as such, merely caution expressed on rare encounters with "space tornadoes". There's no benefit from a "tailwind" and no penalty from a "headwind" in dialogue, only the rare panic when a "subspace sandbar" drastically alters the environmental impact on propulsion.
Does anything need to be said when actions occur indicating the effect of environment on a ship, even at warp?

In TOS, warp too close to a planet or star and it'll slow the effective speed to below sublight.

Fly into an ion storm (the equivalent of a space typhoon or hurricane given the size) and you'll need strong engines to push through it.

In the middle of a space battle, duck into a nearby nebula (the equivalent to naval ships taking refuge in a squall with lightning) and there is a definite resistance when entering it.

You can observe the effects as depicted even without dialogue. No one on the bridge warns anyone about getting stopped by the Mutara Nebula and having to push in. Yet, the effects of space environment, the existence of a "weather report", does show that it does affect the flight of a starship. At least that's how I see it for TOS and the TOS movies. It's different when you look at the other series.
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Old June 6 2013, 06:30 PM   #37
T'Girl
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
True that ships are not propelled by the weather. However I was commenting on Timo's "The thing is, though, the environment never seems to play any role in starship propulsion. Our heroes never discuss "winds" of any sort, or subspace density, or even gravity..." which isn't true.
In the movie generations, when the magnetic fields in a section space changed suddenly, a starship was compelled to make a slight course change.

It somehow effected how the ship was getting to where it was going.

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Old June 6 2013, 06:47 PM   #38
Timo
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

They even said "gravitational forces" instead of forcing us to think that "magnetic" is a 24th century word for gravitic pull... (The bit about "ambient magnetic fields" was apparently unrelated to the course corrections, and just the next item in Data's rant about the effects of the Amargosa detonation.)

That's sort of silly - even a real spacecraft shouldn't need to mind the effects of a star blowing up lightyears away (especially since a star blowing up does not change the gravitational forces at a distance - the mass does not change in the explosion appreciably, so any changes would be limited to short distance ones from the symmetric redistribution of the mass a bit farther away from the centerpoint). But yes, it's there, and it does seem to establish that gravity still is a factor to be considered in starship navigation, even if it is never discussed.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old June 6 2013, 11:09 PM   #39
blssdwlf
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

T'Girl wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
True that ships are not propelled by the weather. However I was commenting on Timo's "The thing is, though, the environment never seems to play any role in starship propulsion. Our heroes never discuss "winds" of any sort, or subspace density, or even gravity..." which isn't true.
In the movie generations, when the magnetic fields in a section space changed suddenly, a starship was compelled to make a slight course change.

It somehow effected how the ship was getting to where it was going.

Good find (or memory) T'Girl
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Old June 6 2013, 11:48 PM   #40
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Something I have always found . . .perplexing, is how in "Balance of Terror" the "Enterprise" was far superior in engine design and speed yet by the time "The Enterprise Incident" rolls around the Romulan's EASILY catch-up to the "Enterprise" which is traveling at warp 9. How did their engine designs advance so far in two years?
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Old June 7 2013, 12:56 AM   #41
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

feek61 wrote: View Post
Something I have always found . . .perplexing, is how in "Balance of Terror" the "Enterprise" was far superior in engine design and speed yet by the time "The Enterprise Incident" rolls around the Romulan's EASILY catch-up to the "Enterprise" which is traveling at warp 9. How did their engine designs advance so far in two years?
It advanced by the Romulans simply buying the Klingons' technology. It's not like the Klingons said "Oh sure, we can enter into an agreement and you can use our ships. You just have to use your own engines on them. We'll enter into an alliance--but you can't have our engine technology."
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Old June 7 2013, 09:15 AM   #42
Timo
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Would it really be plausible to install Klingon engines on the distinctly Romulan BoP design, though? Especially without changing a bit about the exterior appearance of the vessel?

When the Germans gave the Japanese modern inline engines, the Japanese had to design all-new aircraft for them... And never mind jet engine technology!

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Old June 7 2013, 04:54 PM   #43
feek61
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
feek61 wrote: View Post
Something I have always found . . .perplexing, is how in "Balance of Terror" the "Enterprise" was far superior in engine design and speed yet by the time "The Enterprise Incident" rolls around the Romulan's EASILY catch-up to the "Enterprise" which is traveling at warp 9. How did their engine designs advance so far in two years?
It advanced by the Romulans simply buying the Klingons' technology. It's not like the Klingons said "Oh sure, we can enter into an agreement and you can use our ships. You just have to use your own engines on them. We'll enter into an alliance--but you can't have our engine technology."
So Klingon engine technology is far superior to the Federation? That kind of sucks!!
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Old June 7 2013, 06:56 PM   #44
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

I thought I'd take a peek at the novelization of Star Trek: The Motion Picture written by Gene Roddenberry himself. Folks may remember that as the movie opens, the V'Ger cloud attacks a bunch of Klingon ships. In the novelization, Kirk is actually able to "see" this happening. (An emergency signal was transmitted directly to an implant in Kirk's brain--a sort of emergency communication device.)

"Kirk found himself seeing three Klingon cruisers which appeared to be moving at warp velocity and in battle formation. The images became more detailed, increasingly real--he could begin thinking about them consciously. The Klingon vessels were big, dangerous looking--undoubtedly their new K't'inga-class heavy cruisers which some Admiralty tacticians feared might prove faster and more powerful than Starfleet's First Line Constitution-Class starships."

I don't know what the secret is to their speed, but that advantage probably won't last. "Military secrets are the most fleeting of all."
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Old June 8 2013, 02:51 AM   #45
zDarby
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Re: Let's Discuss the Romulan Bird of Prey!

Direct quotes from The Enterprise Incident:

Just after Kirk beams onto the Enterprise with the cloaking device. The exchange is between Scotty and Kirk:

S: "But, sir, what about Mr. Spock?"
K: "We'll just have to hope he can buy us enough time to get this cloaking device installed."
S: "Aye. It'll have to be hooked into our deflector shield control."
K: "Can you do it?"
S: "I don't know, sir."
K: "You have 15 minutes, Scotty."

Later, Scotty says, "I've got the device installed but bless me if I know if it's gonna work. Its the biggest guess I've ever made."

Later still, Kirk contacts Scotty and the following exchange occurs:
"Scotty, switch on that device"
"I did, sir. It's not working"

This tends to preclude any previous preparations to accomadate the cloaking device within the Enterprise.

Later Spock says this to the Romulan commander, "Military secrets are the most fleeting of all."

Apparently Roddenberry liked that phrase.
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