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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old June 3 2013, 10:44 AM   #16
Timo
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

The weird thing about the Borg is that they virtually always let the first attack succeed - even when it is by an already definitely known method, such as a Starfleet hand phaser. They only adapt to the second attack, and that adaptation is successful regardless of the method.

There are one or two exceptions to that. In "Q Who?", the Borg don't allow even the first photon torpedo to succeed, say. But such things are extremely rare.

We might well deduce that the Borg not only don't mind losing a few Drones or a few cubic meters of their Cube to an attack - they want to be defeated that way. After all, such losses don't really cost them anything; VOY even implies that Drone souls are immortal and collectively stored, and Drone bodies thus are truly expendable even in the personal opinion of the body's former owner if anybody bothered to ask. Being lost to an enemy weapon is a victory for the Borg, as they will have learned new things about not just the weapon but the current tactics of the enemy.

The Collective can't afford to do that with photon torpedoes, though, because a single unopposed shot would vaporize their entire ship and preclude learning. So they let hand phaser shots and tommy-gun bullets get through, but not torpedoes.

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Old June 5 2013, 01:24 PM   #17
Forbin
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

I've got it covered:

http://www.inpayne.com/trekfanfic/wolfx.html
http://www.inpayne.com/trekfanfic/wolfdetails.html



Basically: A starship based on the Doomsday Machine. A kilometer-long tube that fires a concentrated antimatter particle beam. Let's see 'em adapt to THAT.
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Old June 5 2013, 01:31 PM   #18
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Indeed, want to defeat the Borg then you simply need a cannon so strong that there's nothing to adapt which is one of the reasons I always thought that the Borg were total bullshit... explosion big enough = dead Borg.
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Old June 5 2013, 10:00 PM   #19
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

...But how to create an explosion bigger than the ones the Borg have shrugged off so far? The main deflector of Starfleet's biggest and baddest ship, presumably her most powerful weapon even in theory, failed to make a dent.

Anyway, if technology overwhelms the Borg, they can always adapt in terms of tactics. A weapon strong enough to annihilate Cubes with one shot? Just send a thousand Cubes! Or fire first.

Really, there's no future to devising stronger and stronger weapons, as this only makes the Borg stronger. What one needs is a weapon that kills with one shot, yes - but also a means of ensuring that the Borg gain no information from this kill. Basically, a whopping big death ray that also emits a jamming field (say, Nero's drill ramped up thousandfold) to cut off communications with the rest of the Collective should offer a chance of success.

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Old June 5 2013, 10:07 PM   #20
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Nah, the Borg suffered from the inevitable water down effect... they were scary and almost unstoppable at first, but once they started showing up regularly in Voyager they basically became more and more dumb so that the good guys could keep beating them. So yeah, they basically had already lost their menace even before Endgame.
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Old June 6 2013, 04:24 AM   #21
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Timo wrote: View Post
...But how to create an explosion bigger than the ones the Borg have shrugged off so far? The main deflector of Starfleet's biggest and baddest ship, presumably her most powerful weapon even in theory, failed to make a dent.
You forget that if Enterprise had fired it BEFORE they assimilated Picard, it probably would have worked.

Anyway, if technology overwhelms the Borg, they can always adapt in terms of tactics. A weapon strong enough to annihilate Cubes with one shot? Just send a thousand Cubes!
You'd think they would have tried that by now instead of some of the retarded Bond Villain schemes cooked up by the Borg Queen.
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Old June 6 2013, 11:49 AM   #22
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Perhaps a computer virus or means to hack their programming?
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Old June 6 2013, 12:14 PM   #23
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Timo wrote: View Post
...But how to create an explosion bigger than the ones the Borg have shrugged off so far? The main deflector of Starfleet's biggest and baddest ship, presumably her most powerful weapon even in theory, failed to make a dent.

Anyway, if technology overwhelms the Borg, they can always adapt in terms of tactics. A weapon strong enough to annihilate Cubes with one shot? Just send a thousand Cubes! Or fire first.

Really, there's no future to devising stronger and stronger weapons, as this only makes the Borg stronger. What one needs is a weapon that kills with one shot, yes - but also a means of ensuring that the Borg gain no information from this kill. Basically, a whopping big death ray that also emits a jamming field (say, Nero's drill ramped up thousandfold) to cut off communications with the rest of the Collective should offer a chance of success.

Timo Saloniemi
There are limits to the amount of energy a ship/cube can produce thus how strong the shields can be, overpower them and blow them to pieces, there is NOTHING to adapt to, same with photon torpedoes what's there to adapt? Nothing, matter and aniti matter collide= boom, more matter and anti matter = bigger boom, there is nothing to adapt to, make a 6000 gigaton tnt torp and you'll vaporize a cube no matter if its know to the Borg that it just a really really reeeeeaaaaally big torpedo.
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Old June 6 2013, 12:57 PM   #24
Timo
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

You forget that if Enterprise had fired it BEFORE they assimilated Picard, it probably would have worked.
Nope - the point is that Starfleet has nothing that could overwhelm the Borg adaptation ability by sheer force alone. The search for a weapon that works even after assimilation is futile.

You'd think they would have tried that by now
What situation so far would have called for that? The Borg aren't exactly losing or anything.

There are limits to the amount of energy a ship/cube can produce thus how strong the shields can be...
...And we have discovered that the Federation cannot reach those limits.

We don't know if it is because they just can't build bombs that are big enough - or because they don't know how to deliver such bombs. The backstage story of the three smallish spacecraft that tried to approach the Cube near Mars in "BoBW" was that they were flying bombs. Well, didn't work...

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Old June 6 2013, 02:13 PM   #25
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

They never tried to make a big enough bomb, the feds have never made any kind of WMD (Genesis maybe) since they're all about peace and usually their conventional hardware is enough to bloody anyone's nose so..
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Old June 6 2013, 02:42 PM   #26
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

I always wondered whether a warp-speed ramming technique would be effective against the Borg - just build a reasonably-sized automated ship and slam it into a cube at warp 9...a waste of resources against more conventional opponents but against a threat like the Borg it could have merit...
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Old June 6 2013, 03:38 PM   #27
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Hando wrote: View Post
I know that the Borg threat is gone...
Only if you believe Voyager, which is NEVER a good idea.
I thought the OP was referring to the Destiny trilogy of novels, which ended the Borg in 2381.


As for techniques to use against them, send Kirk to seduce the queen.
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Old June 6 2013, 03:42 PM   #28
Timo
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Several ships tried to approach the Borg cube and were defeated by its tractor or cutting beams in "Q Who?", "BoBW", "Emissary" etc. Would they have had more success by going FTL?

Well, the idea is obvious enough - and if ships were so willing to perform suicide runs at STL speeds, surely a few must also have tried FTL, at least after seeing how STL was achieving nothing.

Yet the Borg were not defeated off camera. So either the things that looked like STL suicide runs (say, the plunge of the Melbourne towards the Cube without firing a shot in "Emissary") were something else and nobody but Riker was willing to attempt glorious suicide - or then FTL ramming does not work. The odds of it never having even been attempted are pretty low in comparison...

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Old June 6 2013, 07:14 PM   #29
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Timo wrote: View Post
You forget that if Enterprise had fired it BEFORE they assimilated Picard, it probably would have worked.
Nope - the point is that Starfleet has nothing that could overwhelm the Borg adaptation ability by sheer force alone. The search for a weapon that works even after assimilation is futile.
Exactly. Come up with a bunch of NEW weapons that can crush them before they adapt to them. They didn't NEED to adapt tot he deflector blast, they got to literally pick Picard's brain and learn all they needed to know about it. If they hadn't gotten Picard, Best of Both Worlds would have been a one-parter.

What situation so far would have called for that?
Any situation in which the Borg actually desire to assimilate Earth. First Contact, for example, would have resulted in victory for the Borg if they had simply deployed two or more cubes to the job. As it stands it took the combined efforts of the entire fleet just to take down that one cube; the arrival of a second or third would have been lights out for Starfleet.
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Old June 6 2013, 07:25 PM   #30
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Not that this is going to get much traction, but it needs to be recognize that the single most troublesome thing about the Borg -- their ability to adapt -- is a rather inexplicable addition to their capabilities that appears to be a misunderstanding of Guinan's line from "Q, Who." According to Guinan, "the ability to learn and adapt" was actually STARFLEET's main advantage, not the Borg.

The BORG'S main advantage is that you can't really kill them. As Q put it "If you damage them, the essence of what they are remains. They regenerate and keep coming. They are relentless." And even in the early stages of "Best of Both Worlds" discussions about what to do with the Borg centered around THAT aspect, the fact that a Borg Cube could still fight effectively even if 70% of it was inoperable.

My sense is that this is and should always have been the main aspect of the Borg. It's not their ability to adapt that's the problem, it's the T-1000-like ability to get blown to smithereens and then pull themselves back together like nothing happened. If you want to make them more menacing, give them the ability to regenerate their entire ship in seconds or minutes instead of hours.
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