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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 30 2013, 10:52 PM   #31
solariabsg25
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

I don't think the sequence was supposed to show the whole thing about the Prime Directive (the boundaries of which seem to depend on the plot requirements of the story).

It was intended to show that Kirk HAD been promoted too quickly in the '09 movie. Pike calls him out on it, telling Kirk he's bending the rules constantly indicating this isn't the first time. Kirk even argues that the rules don't apply to him.

Then his whole world is torn from him, and Pike wanted him as First Officer in order to give Kirk the guidance to become the Captain he should be. Admiral Marcus was probably counting on the fact that Kirk's career was on the line, thinking that Kirk would just follow the orders to launch the torpedoes following his humiliation and dressing down.
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Old May 30 2013, 11:00 PM   #32
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I was talking character arc. The movie starts with "Look, Kirk is still immature." and ends with "Look, Kirk gets his 5-year mission." but in between, there is nothing that makes him earn that.
I disagree. I thought there was, quite a bit. Kirk's realisation that his desire for vengeance was rash. His realisation that he's no good as the captain. His sacrifice, etc.
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Old May 30 2013, 11:47 PM   #33
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
In this film, Kirk "earns" the 5-year-mission by hiding the ship under water for no reason and against Scotty's opinion, violating the Prime Directive, making several wrong decisions his crew has to talk him out of, getting his own ship shot to pieces, teaming up with the bad guy and failing to control him, and eventually killing thousands of people in San Francisco.
He kept Admiral Marcus from starting a war with Klingons and kept Khan from killing many more people on Earth (and other places) with a ship of mass destruction. Kirk is such a horrible officer.
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Old May 31 2013, 12:20 AM   #34
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

I dont think saving the planet was the big deal here, it was a big deal but not Pike and co's main issue, it was that Kirk revealed the Enterprise (breaking the Prime Directive) and then lying about it in his official report which got him busted.

The Prime Directive always made more sense when it was simply dont make a primitive species aware of you or where you come from.

The TNG style "no interference what so ever who are we to play god!" version has always raised questions for me, if we adopted a policy of not interfearing with the natural outcome of events here on Earth today then technically such a Prime Directive could stop more developed countries sending aid to those affected by eath quakes or tsunamis or areas of severe and prolonged draught, something which most people I would assume wouldnt go along with!
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Old May 31 2013, 12:46 AM   #35
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

Saving a civilization while keeping out of sight of the natives seemed to be in accordance with the Prime Directive in TOS...otherwise, they wouldn't have been trying to deflect the asteroid in "The Paradise Syndrome".

In STID, I think that Kirk's punishment for violating the Prime Directive should have been being forced to sit and watch a compilation of Picard's speeches about the Prime Directive from TNG.
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Old May 31 2013, 03:17 AM   #36
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

-Brett- wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
The other issue that I have is since they said anyone can watch this film and understand it without any Trek knowledge, did they even cover what the Prime Directive is in this film? Did I miss that?
I would think there's enough there for the audience to figure it out from context without too much trouble.
I don't. The context is kind of there, but then it also kind of isn't. How did they plan on the people not seeing them leave anyway? They had to rise up out of the water at some point, and just think of the sound that would have made. I don't understand how they weren't detected going in if the people were that close. It doesn't matter now, though.
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Old May 31 2013, 03:28 AM   #37
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
The Prime Directive pisses me off. What defines "natural evolution?" We're all a part of nature. Just because I come from another planet and have more advanced technology than you doesn't mean I'm not natural! If a volcano threatens to wipe out all life on a planet and I have the means to stop it, not doing so would just be douchey.

agreed-the PD is stupid because the premise that an outside observer could judge what "natural evolution" would be for a group is ridiculous.
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Old May 31 2013, 03:37 AM   #38
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

If I were in charge of a new series, the Prime Directive is one of the first things I would chuck out the window and start from scratch on. It would be very simple.

Essentially "No star ship commander shall involve themselves, or any member of their crew, or any starfleet personnel, in the political or cultural machinations of a pre-warp society." IE: Yes, you can save them from extinction, just go unseen. Don't influence the culture and politics.

As far as I understand the PD in TOS, that's basically how it was supposed to be anyway.
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Old May 31 2013, 03:39 AM   #39
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

If the Federation had been around to deflect the Chicxulub impact that wiped out the dinosaurs, we wouldn't be here.

Anyway, it's not like Kirk really got punished or learned anything. He went from Captain to being back to the Academy to First Officer and back to Captain in about 10 minutes. The really interesting thing to see would be how other Captains feel when Pike is always there to pull Kirk's ass out of the fire and what's going to happen now that Pike is gone.
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Old May 31 2013, 04:21 AM   #40
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

RPJOB wrote: View Post
If the Federation had been around to deflect the Chicxulub impact that wiped out the dinosaurs, we wouldn't be here.
We were not a forgone conclusion, or an end result of the extinction of the dinosaurs. There was no intention by the universe for "us" to happen. Not by any stretch. We are here through the most narrow window, and it was just as likely that Earth would have been so totally ruined by that meteor as to never support complex life again as it was for us to come into being.

Plus, we're not talking about Dinosaurs. If we want to go down that path, then we know for certain what happens in Star Trek when a Class M planet is found with no sentient lifeforms on it. They colonize it. So if the idea is that "One day an intelligent species could emerge from this planet..." Well they already break that rule anytime they colonize a planet capable of supporting life. We're strictly talking about protecting indigenous sentient life from total extinction by natural disaster. Not species that may, in a few million or billion years exist.
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Old May 31 2013, 05:29 AM   #41
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
knine wrote: View Post
No, these first reasons are why he lost the Enterprise and ends up getting assigned as first officer to Pike. Then Pike and bunches of other captains and admirals are killed. So of course, Admiral Marcus, with the best of intentions and no other motives at all gives him back the ship so he can take out Khan.
I was talking character arc. The movie starts with "Look, Kirk is still immature." and ends with "Look, Kirk gets his 5-year mission." but in between, there is nothing that makes him earn that.
Disagree, he earns it.

The way you presented the character arc is misleading and doesn't represent the actual course of events as well as how and why they took place. You are way oversimplifying. It's like saying..... PrimeKirk gets lots of alien tail during his five year mission, and then is promoted to Admiral!

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
knine wrote: View Post
The actions and orders of Spock are what mainly caused Khan's ship to fall from orbit, Kirk was busy saving the Enterprise during those events.
The commanding officer takes responsibility for the actions of his subordinates. Kirk & Spock saved the Enterprise at the cost of 10,000 innocent lives. Even if you say Spock takes all the blame, why the hell was he around at the start of the 5-year mission then?
At the time of the crash, Spock was the commanding officer. Kirk was dead.

I agree with what others said though, yes lives were lost in the crash, but the alternative if Spock had not crippled the big bad ship would have been far far worse.
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Old May 31 2013, 06:20 AM   #42
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

knine wrote: View Post
I agree with what others said though, yes lives were lost in the crash, but the alternative if Spock had not crippled the big bad ship would have been far far worse.
Especially since Khan was going back to his pre-exile plan which Spock pointed out was basically exterminating anyone Khan and his followers saw as inferior.
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Old June 1 2013, 02:46 AM   #43
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
In this film, Kirk "earns" the 5-year-mission by hiding the ship under water for no reason and against Scotty's opinion, violating the Prime Directive, making several wrong decisions his crew has to talk him out of, getting his own ship shot to pieces, teaming up with the bad guy and failing to control him, and eventually killing thousands of people in San Francisco.
Yes saving the Earth a couple of years ago and stopping the plans of a war-mongering Admiral doesn't seems much.
Perhaps ships should be given to more of the people who sat on their hands while Nero attacked or let Marcus operate unhindered. Perhaps people who are good at paperwork or would watch planets getting destroyed should be captains.
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Old June 1 2013, 12:39 PM   #44
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

So Kirk's apparent recklessness/idiocy is redeemed by the incompetencies/non-actions of his peers?
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Old June 1 2013, 03:14 PM   #45
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Re: Oh come on Spock, it sucks! Big Deal. (SPOILERS)

^Not unusual for cinematic Trek. There's a long tradition of non-hero crew Starfleet types being straw men in the films.
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