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Old June 7 2013, 05:31 AM   #181
ralfy
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

MacLeod wrote: View Post
So are you saying that most pepole most of the time don't behave in a consistant way? Persons behaving in a manner which is inconsistant manner with their normal behaviour would be an exceptioon rather than the norm.
Not most of the time.


So in the same situtation or broadly similiar situation that a person has come across before they are likely to behave in a consistant manner. I.e. do the same thing they did before if it worked last time. If it didn't work last time they would try something different.
Sometimes. In other cases, they will experience some personal problem and act irrationally because of that.


But most people tend to hold the same principals, they wouldn't tend to fluctuate that much. I.e if you believe the law should be upheld, next week you can't say lets ingore the law, then the following day/week etc.. to be the law must be up held, then back to when I do it it's not against the law.
They do. It's just that behavior isn't consistent. For example, someone will be in pain due to the death of a loved one and because of that may act irrationally in certain cases.

It's not a matter of changing principles but being affected emotionally by various experiences, and that in turn affecting behavior.
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Old June 7 2013, 05:58 AM   #182
Dream
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

R. Star wrote: View Post
Working with Garak to plant false evidence about a Dominion invasion of Romulus would count. So well telling Worf to "do whatever it takes" to solve the problem about Gowron going insane.
Sisko was authorized to do those things by Starfleet.
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Old June 7 2013, 08:45 AM   #183
MacLeod
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

ralfy wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
So are you saying that most pepole most of the time don't behave in a consistant way? Persons behaving in a manner which is inconsistant manner with their normal behaviour would be an exceptioon rather than the norm.
Not most of the time.


So in the same situtation or broadly similiar situation that a person has come across before they are likely to behave in a consistant manner. I.e. do the same thing they did before if it worked last time. If it didn't work last time they would try something different.
Sometimes. In other cases, they will experience some personal problem and act irrationally because of that.


But most people tend to hold the same principals, they wouldn't tend to fluctuate that much. I.e if you believe the law should be upheld, next week you can't say lets ingore the law, then the following day/week etc.. to be the law must be up held, then back to when I do it it's not against the law.
They do. It's just that behavior isn't consistent. For example, someone will be in pain due to the death of a loved one and because of that may act irrationally in certain cases.

It's not a matter of changing principles but being affected emotionally by various experiences, and that in turn affecting behavior.
No one is saying that experiances don't change you, but if you were against doing A, and an experiance changed your mind so you didn't mind doing A. Fine. Just don't go back to be against A, then in favour of A, then against A.

For example in ST if you believe that the PD should be upheld despite your circumstances, fine. If an experiance changed your mind to never mind the PD I'll do whatever it takes, fine. But if you are flip-flopping bewtween the two then there is an issue.

I would also expect starfleet Officers esp. those that have acheived the rank of Captain, to have had training not to act irrationaly based on some personal problem.
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Old June 7 2013, 09:06 AM   #184
R. Star
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Dream wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Working with Garak to plant false evidence about a Dominion invasion of Romulus would count. So well telling Worf to "do whatever it takes" to solve the problem about Gowron going insane.
Sisko was authorized to do those things by Starfleet.
In the Pale Moonlight yes... that still doesn't change it's a PD violation. He never got permission from anyone to tell Worf to kill Gowron though.
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Old June 7 2013, 09:16 AM   #185
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Strictly an internal matter.
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Old June 7 2013, 09:47 PM   #186
MacLeod
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

R. Star wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Working with Garak to plant false evidence about a Dominion invasion of Romulus would count. So well telling Worf to "do whatever it takes" to solve the problem about Gowron going insane.
Sisko was authorized to do those things by Starfleet.
In the Pale Moonlight yes... that still doesn't change it's a PD violation. He never got permission from anyone to tell Worf to kill Gowron though.
Well strictly speaking he didn't order Worf to kill Gowron, as you said he was ordered "to do whatever it takes.". Now you can say it was implied but that isn't the same as actually ordered to do so. Splitting hairs perhaps.

And a subordinate killing a senior officer who they believed unfit for command is permitted under Klingon Law. And Worf did succed Gowron as Chancellor, and again under Klingon Law he named his succesor.
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Old June 7 2013, 10:37 PM   #187
R. Star
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

MacLeod wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post

Sisko was authorized to do those things by Starfleet.
In the Pale Moonlight yes... that still doesn't change it's a PD violation. He never got permission from anyone to tell Worf to kill Gowron though.
Well strictly speaking he didn't order Worf to kill Gowron, as you said he was ordered "to do whatever it takes.". Now you can say it was implied but that isn't the same as actually ordered to do so. Splitting hairs perhaps.

And a subordinate killing a senior officer who they believed unfit for command is permitted under Klingon Law. And Worf did succed Gowron as Chancellor, and again under Klingon Law he named his succesor.
Of course it was implied and of course it's splitting hairs. As Odo would say... a tidy arrangement. Just more than a bit hypocritical being Sisko ripped into Worf a few seasons earlier for assisting Kurn's request for suicide even when it was the accepted Klingon Law.
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Old June 8 2013, 03:35 AM   #188
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

People in real life behave contextually. How you behave depends on the situation you're in.

I didn't sense that Sisko was intending Worf to kill Gowron. Worf's decision to kill Gowron was based on Ezri's analysis of the Klingon Empire and how corrupt it was.
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Old June 8 2013, 09:32 AM   #189
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

People in real life with no moral compass behave contextually. How you behave when you have no moral compass depends on the situation you're in.

That being said, Klingon's seem to have a different set of most valued virtues than humans.
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Old June 8 2013, 01:19 PM   #190
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Pretty much everyone in real life behaves contextually. In practice, most moral compasses point towards being friendly, i.e., most of all, doing what everyone else does and when you don't, calling your accomplices "friends."

As demonstrated yet again, discussions of PD precedents in previous incarnations of Trek is hopelessly confusing, because the concept is confused and undefined. The episode provides the relevant reading to the story via Tuvok's assertion that her action violates the PD. Like Kirk, she does what's right instead.
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Old June 8 2013, 01:41 PM   #191
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

And Archer lets a whole species die and he doesn't even have a PD to blame!
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Last edited by teacake; June 8 2013 at 02:12 PM.
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Old June 8 2013, 01:53 PM   #192
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

The Vulcan's had something very similar which T'Pol educated Johnboy about, that of course, he wasn't bound to.
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Old June 8 2013, 02:22 PM   #193
teacake
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

TUCKER: I cannot wait to get down there.
T'POL: I'd advise against that. It's standard protocol to wait until a society develops warp drive before initiating first contact.
TUCKER: Those are Vulcan protocols, not human.

Civilization, which was before Dear Doctor. Too bad he didn't use his knee jerk reaction against "the Vulcans say.." when it actually counted. It's not like he was going to get into trouble for deciding either way, he was pretty much the space king until he blew up that whole atmosphere.
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Old June 8 2013, 02:40 PM   #194
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Season Two's the Communicator touched the Subject too.

Archer is in jail awaiting execution when he says this: "If I know T'Pol, she won't want to leave any contamination behind. It may take some time, but she'll find a way to get everything back. Including our remains."
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Old June 9 2013, 01:07 AM   #195
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Re: Why Janeway is the Worst Star Trek Captain!

Though that happened after Archer's decision to let a race die he could easily save in Dear Doctor. I was just looking for how much of this radical idea Archer had heard when he did that (Dear Doctor is ep 13 of season 1).

However it seems that T'Pol has been banging on about it quite a bit from this at the end of season 2 in The Expanse:

TUCKER: Literally. I can't wait to get in there, Captain, and find the people who did this. And tell me we won't be tiptoeing around. None of that non-interference crap T'Pol's always shoving down our throats. Maybe its good thing she's leaving.
ARCHER: We'll do what we have to do, Trip. Whatever it takes.
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