RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,888
Posts: 5,476,217
Members: 25,049
Currently online: 687
Newest member: RikersBeard

TrekToday headlines

Klingon Bloodwine To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25

Trek Actors In War Of The Worlds Fundraiser
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25

Star Trek: The Next Generation Gag Reel Tease
By: T'Bonz on Nov 24

Shatner In Haven
By: T'Bonz on Nov 24

Retro Review: Covenant
By: Michelle on Nov 22

Two Official Starships Collection Previews
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21

Saldana: Women Issues In Hollywood
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21

Shatner Book Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Nov 20

Trek Original Series Slippers
By: T'Bonz on Nov 19

Hemsworth Is Sexiest Man Alive
By: T'Bonz on Nov 19


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 6 2013, 03:56 AM   #46
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: A Military Star Fleet and UESPA

Sci wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

The problem with this assertion is that the Starfleet seen in TOS, TNG, DSN, and VOY is explicitly established to be the Federation Starfleet on multiple occasions
Which makes sense, since Earth is a Federation member.
No. If it's the Federation Starfleet rather than the United Earth Starfleet, that means that it is an agency of the Federation government (rather than the United Earth government).
I'm not sure how that's different from what I said.

By comparison to real life: The Maryland Defense Foce may be an American force, but it is a Maryland agency, not a United States agency; it answers to the Maryland government (not the United States government), and its commander-in-chief is the Governor of the State of Maryland (not the U.S. President).
Right. Contrast with, say, the Maryland National Guard, which IS an American agency.

Actually, that analogy works surprisingly well in this situation. We have UESPA (Maryland Defense Force) which is related to and works to support Starfleet (Maryland National Guard). Due to the nature of the Federation and the circumstances of its incorporation, the latter probably would not even exist without the former.

By contrast, even though the United States Navy's headquarters are in the Commonwealth of Virginia, the USN is not a Virginia agency, does not answer to the Virginia government, and its commander-in-chief is not the Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia.
And yet, imagine if the US Navy had evolved from the Virginia Navy, that all of its main bases were and had always been in Virginia, that it was dominated by Virginians, that almost all of its ships were built in Virginia, named in a language that only Virginians speak, designed using technology primarily developed by Virginian companies.

We would still call it the U.S. Navy, but it would be recognized that the U.S. Navy is primarily a product of Virginia. It would then make sense that almost every time the United States gets attacked by anyone, Virginia is almost always their first target.

On the other hand, the Federation Starfleet seems to use policies about the contact of pre-warp civilizations and a planetary classification system that come from the Vulcans.
Of course. Earth Starfleet originally borrowed Vulcan star charts for their earliest missions and started copying some of their more successful protocols when their happy-go-lucky fly-by-night approach proved to be untenable.

I think it's just as likely, if not more, that the Federation Starfleet was founded by combining the United Earth, Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite space services.
It would be nice to think so, but all three of those are severely under-represented in Starfleet despite having much older and more mature space programs. Both Vulcan and Andorian ships were considerably more advanced and more powerful than their Earth-built counterparts, and judging by some of Daniel's historical records, the Vulcans continued to develop their own unique ship designs even after the founding of the Federation. As did the Tellarites, depending on how you interpret Sarek's argument in "Journey to Babel."

So I think that the "Federation Starfleet" is the name of the spacefaring organization that Earth contributes to the Federation. The Vulcan, Tellarite and Andorian contributions probably go by different names; it is at least plausible that the term "Vulcan Science Academy" is an umbrella term that would include, among other things, the bulk of their space fleet and all of its offworld space installations as a whole. The Andorian contribution might be incorporated under yet another organization, while the Tellarite fleet is administered by the Federation Unit for Clever Comebacks (FUCC).
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 7 2013, 08:56 AM   #47
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Location: comfortably residing in the meat packing district
Re: A Military Star Fleet and UESPA

Sci wrote: View Post
The problem with this comparison is that under no circumstances are ships of the Federation Starfleet referred to as being "Earth" or "Vulcan" starships
Other than when exactly this happens during TOS.

Its ships are never called Earth or Tellarite or whatever ships
Other than when exactly this happens during TOS.

As I said before: The writers of TOS retconned UESPA out when they created Starfleet and the Federation.
Yes you did say that, problem with that of course is the UESPA was created by TPTB seven episodes after Starfleet was first mentioned.

And two episode after the one with the UESPA, where the Federation was first mentioned, that episode also mentioned the USS Valiant, which was a starship in a Earth expedition a half century after the formation of the Federation and the Earth ship's name include USS.

True! Yet neither NATO nor the United Nations have their own navies
Correct, both NATO fleets and the UN task forces are composed of the naval vessels of the Member nations.

You are making this up.
I'm exploring a possibility based upon evidence contained within the show.

... it's made perfectly clear over the course of the show that it is the Federation Council, and not the "commander-in-chief" that is providing instructions to Starfleet.
Actually, the Federation Council is barely mentioned in that episode.
You're misunderstanding, "the show" refers to the entirety of Star Trek, multiple series and movies, and not to a particular episode.

And I stand by my post, when the Enterprise (various Enterprise's) were told where to go and what to do, that was coming from Starfleet or the Federation (and on occasion Earth), and when we heard about the Federation it was the Council that was specifically mentioned. The President was seen what, three times? And then never again.

You seem fond of retcon, perhaps the Federation President was later "retcon" out of existence, along with everything he ever said. The show obviously did continue with the Council being the authoritative body.

TOS (pre-movies) never mentioned a President..
10 of the movies, no mention.
All of TNG, no mention.
All of Voyager, no mention.

Starfleet is only ever referred to as the Federation Starfleet,
Only? Try rarely, the majority of the time Starfleet is simply Starfleet.

Tell that to the French.
As the article you site makes clear, France did not "get along" with NATO's structure and withdrew for over four decades.

*****

... the United States Navy's headquarters are in the Commonwealth of Virginia, the USN is not a Virginia agency, does not answer to the Virginia government, and its commander-in-chief is not the Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia.
NATO headquarters is located in Casteau, Kingdom of Belgium. NATO is not a Belgian agency, does not answer to the Belgian government, and its commander-in-chief is not Prime Minister Elio Di Rupo.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9 2013, 09:06 PM   #48
TIN_MAN
Fleet Captain
 
TIN_MAN's Avatar
 
Re: A Military Star Fleet and UESPA

Another thing to think about, the Axanar war was going on more or less during the Pike era and thus the ships like the Enterprise at that time sported a more spartan look and a minimal (or standard) crew of about 200, but afterwards in piece time, during the Kirk era, the Enterprise and at least “12 like her” were refitted for 5 year deep space exploratory missions and the crew complement was boosted to 430 by adding all the scientific personnel necessary to carry out that mission profile?
TIN_MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 9 2013, 11:46 PM   #49
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: A Military Star Fleet and UESPA

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
the Enterprise and at least “12 like her” were refitted for 5 year deep space exploratory missions
That assumes the Enterprise wasn't the only ship on a 5 year deep space exploratory mission. Considering Kirk made a big deal about it in TMP it sounds like something only he and the Enterprise did.
Hartzilla2007 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 10 2013, 12:19 AM   #50
Nerroth
Fleet Captain
 
Nerroth's Avatar
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: A Military Star Fleet and UESPA

At this point, Star Fleet (as opposed to Starfleet) more closely relates to the organization as seen in the Star Fleet Universe, as opposed to what has been shown on-screen since 1979.

(From a legal perspective, ADB are obliged to refer to "their" version as Star Fleet, based on the term as was used in the Technical Manual; while the Paramount/CBS franchise has gone with Starfleet as one word instead.)


For what it's worth, ADB's Star Fleet (as detailed in works like Prime Directive Federation) is primarily constituted as a star navy. However, that does not mean it doesn't have exploration as a major focus.

In peacetime, what usually happens is that, of the various numbered fleets (each with a particular region of Federation space to patrol), the Second Fleet is the one which gets all of the dedicated survey cruisers and other such ships, and is often considered to be the premier posting for those "who think survey duty is the highest calling". The ships of the Second are most commonly deployed in the coreward region not bordering one of the Federation's near neighbours, so has less of an overt need to engage in more "mundane" duties in their neck of the galactic woods.

That doesn't mean the other numbered fleets don't get to go on missions of exploration, but it does mean that issues like hunting pirates, patrolling border regions with rival empires, and other such military-minded operations are far more common than in the Second.

(The ADB-Federation was originally based on the "big Fed" map shown in the Star Fleet Technical Manual, but was given further detail as more "native" empires were added, such as the Lyrans and Hydrans shown in the first two-and-a-half Starfleet Command PC games. However, since it is a "big Fed" setting, that still leaves a lot of unexplored star systems within the boundaries of Federation space itself.)


None of this is directly relevant to what the Franchise has done with Starfleet post-1979, of course. But it does help show how some of the building blocks set in the Technical Manual (many of which were discarded by Paramount/CBS themselves) have been expanded upon in another, semi-related universe.
Nerroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 10 2013, 12:41 AM   #51
TIN_MAN
Fleet Captain
 
TIN_MAN's Avatar
 
Re: A Military Star Fleet and UESPA

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
TIN_MAN wrote: View Post
the Enterprise and at least “12 like her” were refitted for 5 year deep space exploratory missions
That assumes the Enterprise wasn't the only ship on a 5 year deep space exploratory mission. Considering Kirk made a big deal about it in TMP it sounds like something only he and the Enterprise did.
That may be true, but it's an assumption that Roddenberry and almost everyone else has made, and since you brought up TMP, Roddenberry's novelization of that movie makes it clear that there were other ships on five year missions.

I know the novel is not "cann" but if the creator of star trek, "Great Bird of the Galaxy" himself thinks so, then that's good enough for me.
TIN_MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:26 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.