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Old May 27 2013, 01:34 AM   #31
1001001
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Re: death penalty

BillJ wrote: View Post
1001001 wrote: View Post
I am against it.
I'm against it. But there are times that my emotions get the better of me and I think they should take someone out and hang them. Especially when the crime involves children.
I certainly understand the emotion behind that.

But that's exactly why we have the system we do. So that anger and vengeance do not rule. Let cooler, more objective heads prevail.

In theory, anyway...
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Old May 27 2013, 01:37 AM   #32
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Re: death penalty

I am firmly against the death penalty.
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Old May 27 2013, 01:42 AM   #33
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Re: death penalty

The death penalty is terrible, both in idea and practice.
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Old May 27 2013, 01:48 AM   #34
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Re: death penalty

BennieGamali wrote: View Post
I think the death penalty is wrong.

Buuut.. if there is ever a planet where we could stick rapists and killers...

I don't know. I just wish that people who wish to do others harm could be beamed to another place where they could do harm to eachother. Peace for the peacefull.
I don't wish them harm. I just want the rest of us to be safe from them. A long prison sentence -- life, if need be -- serves that purpose. Not 100% of the time, but usually.
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Old May 27 2013, 02:02 AM   #35
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Re: death penalty

I agree and would say that being locked up in one place and the way this stains your biography and thus impacts your life after prison is punishment enough, at least for us rich Westerners. (I don't wanna imply that in pre-modern times or in third world countries a decent life in prison, being warm, well-fed, secure, able to read and exercise and so on, would not have been too comfortable.)

Furthermore even a rapist or a murderer might not commit the crime again when he gets out (assuming that it isn't a life sentence). Making prison hell reduces the chances for actually becoming a better person afterwards. Not to mention that claiming to defend civilization against crime while being fine with incarcerated people getting hurt is utterly hypocritical.
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Old May 27 2013, 02:05 AM   #36
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Re: death penalty

I'm generally not in favor of it, although there are a few rare cases where I can see it being arguably warranted (the Nuremberg trials and Saddam Hussein being two examples). I think life without parole is ideal for most crimes.
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Old May 27 2013, 02:12 AM   #37
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Re: death penalty

Faria wrote: View Post
What do you think of death penalty?

I think it's a good method to put off unrecoverable criminals.

I'd apply it for recidivious criminal,independently by the crime committed.

and you?
I thnk the death penalty is pointless. No matter how many monsters get executed, there is always another one getting in line to take their place.

I would prefer to replace the death penalty with life in prison without parole, and applied only for first-degree murder. It would also eliminate the possibility of an innocent person being murdered by the state.
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Old May 27 2013, 02:15 AM   #38
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Re: death penalty

Unicron wrote: View Post
I'm generally not in favor of it, although there are a few rare cases where I can see it being arguably warranted (the Nuremberg trials and Saddam Hussein being two examples). I think life without parole is ideal for most crimes.
I wouldn't necessarily mind the death penalty for war crimes either but I think that the ICC solution is better. I also think that getting executed can make you a martyr in the eyes of your political fans whereas rotting in prison is not so glorious.
Let's also not ignore the implications of 'death penalty for war criminals': If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged. I am not a fan of Chomsky but here he is correct.
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Old May 27 2013, 03:22 AM   #39
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Re: death penalty

IF the death penalty wasn't unequally applied against minorities, the less educated, and the poor...

IF the death penalty wasn't more expensive than life imprisonment...

IF the death penalty was part of consistent nationwide sentencing guidelines and didn't vary by state to state...

IF the death penalty actually served as an effective deterrent against crime...

IF the death penalty was only applied to those who were guaranteed beyond a shadow of a doubt to be guilty...

Then I still would be opposed to capital punishment because it's hypocritical, illogical, and morally wrong to punish murder with state sanctioned murder.


JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Not sure if that is a valid argument against death penalty.

It can be re-worded.

Advocating imprisonment implies being fine with some innocent people being imprisoned.
Does that mean prisons are wrong because there MIGHT be a chance an innocent person gets into jail for - maybe - 30 years until it becomes clear was was innocent? An innocent person might get sent to jail and DIE before a new technique (like DNA tests) proves his innocence.
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
There are cases of people getting released after DECADES. Your life is pretty much ruined then. Some even died in prison even though they were innocent. Death candidates wait several decades as well for their execution.
Please tell me that you were just being your usual pointlessly contrarian self and that you didn't seriously consider this to be an effective argument.
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Old May 27 2013, 03:36 AM   #40
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Re: death penalty

Couldn't one argue that warfare is essentially a form of state-sponsored murder, and one that seems to get far more of a free pass than the death penalty? I'm asking only as a devil's advocate and I agree with all of your Ifs, I'm just not entirely convinced that the state is inherently murdering when there are circumstances that might cost an extremely dangerous and clearly guilty offender their life.

I can't speak for JarodRussell, but I do think his examples have a valid context to them. Life without parole is far better in my mind as a maximum punishment for most crimes, but it could still be argued to be a death penalty. The state just won't kill you quickly.
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Old May 27 2013, 03:46 AM   #41
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Re: death penalty

So, basically:

Death penalty. Discuss.
OK. I am against it.
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Old May 27 2013, 03:48 AM   #42
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Re: death penalty

Unicron wrote: View Post
Couldn't one argue that warfare is essentially a form of state-sponsored murder, and one that seems to get far more of a free pass than the death penalty? I'm asking only as a devil's advocate and I agree with all of your Ifs, I'm just not entirely convinced that the state is inherently murdering when there are circumstances that might cost an extremely dangerous and clearly guilty offender their life.
The way I look at that is, murder is always illegal, so there can never be "state-sponsored" murder. Killing that is allowed under the law cannot, by definition, be illegal, therefore it's not murder.
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Old May 27 2013, 03:52 AM   #43
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Re: death penalty

IF the death penalty wasn't unequally applied against minorities, the less educated, and the poor...
and against men. A man has a far greater opportunity than a woman of being executed even for similar crimes.
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Old May 27 2013, 04:04 AM   #44
Unicron
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Re: death penalty

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post

The way I look at that is, murder is always illegal, so there can never be "state-sponsored" murder. Killing that is allowed under the law cannot, by definition, be illegal, therefore it's not murder.
But it's fair to say that not all laws are morally valid or potentially legal, even if the state claims otherwise. The laws aren't meant to have that level of rigidity to them, because otherwise they lose any sense of accountability (and probably some measure of enforcement as well). Not all forms of killing would be considered moral or legal, but that doesn't inherently make them murder either.
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Old May 27 2013, 04:46 AM   #45
Locutus of Bored
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Re: death penalty

Unicron wrote: View Post
Couldn't one argue that warfare is essentially a form of state-sponsored murder, and one that seems to get far more of a free pass than the death penalty?
Sure, it can be, and if it's found to be conducted illegally then the perpetrators should be held accountable before the international criminal court. But at the same time, most nations, factions, or leaders don't just quit their wars of aggression or genocide and submit to judgment just because you ask nicely, so war is sometimes required to bring their wrondoing to an end.

I can't speak for JarodRussell, but I do think his examples have a valid context to them. Life without parole is far better in my mind as a maximum punishment for most crimes, but it could still be argued to be a death penalty. The state just won't kill you quickly.
No, it's not valid, because there's no practical replacement for prison sentencing to prevent dangerous or recidivist criminals from harming the public at this time. No one is advocating for the complete abolition of jail terms (nor do I think Jarod actually would either, which is why the argument was stupid), but they are advocating for the abolition of the death penalty, so bringing up the former to discredit an argument against the latter makes little sense.

Plus, he wasn't just talking about life sentences, he was talking about any long term sentence where an innocent was put in prison. It's a stupid argument, because any human endeavor is going to be fallible by its very nature, the justice system included. But that doesn't mean we just stop prosecuting dangerous criminals entirely because there might be a mistake. We should try to prevent those mistakes as best we can of course, but we won't eliminate them completely. Which is why, as tragic as it is for anyone who is innocent to be wrongly convicted and imprisoned, it at least gives you a chance to correct your mistakes if you don't execute them in the meantime.

Extending the issue to include war and non-capital crimes only serves to confuse and distract from the issue of the death penalty. I think it's serious enough to be discussed on its own without throwing in every tangent that requires you to overcome human nature to solve. It's a hell of a lot more realistic to put an end to the death penalty in our time than it is to completely eliminate the necessity for war or imprisonment. Let's deal with what we as a people can actually put a stop to in the near term.
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