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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old June 3 2013, 04:23 PM   #16
JarodRussell
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

I would have loved to see Sisko in First Contact. Picard, who got raped by the Borg, and Sisko, who lost his wife to the Borg and who still has a mistrust with Picard because of that. Sisko's role in this would be a merge of Worf and Lily. I get chills just imagining how the "The line must be drawn here" scene would have played with Sisko instead of Lily.
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Old June 9 2013, 05:07 PM   #17
Crazyewok
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

I honnestly think 75% had no idea what a good idea was if it came up and bit them in the arse. Even Gene Rodenberry became worse than usless by the time of TNG.

Considering how stupid half the producers are I would have been surprised if DS9 and TNG had worked out even half as good as they did and didnt end up consitantly like Voyager and Ent at its worst moments.
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Old June 9 2013, 06:06 PM   #18
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
I envision addressing the full Federation Council would look something like this.

www.weylandindustries.com/tedtalk

Here's the whole speech that I'm really showing:



AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ Maybe the Federation was losing the war so badly because the bulk of their ships were century old models. Excelsior and Miranda class really?

When you have Defiant, Galaxy, Sovereign, Intrepid, Akira and Prometheus class and how much durable and tactically superior those ships are. Whoever was making tactical/battle strategies at Starfleet needs to have their heads checked.
The whole idea behind the Dominion War was for it not to be a cakewalk for the Federation-another 'kick in our complacency' to quote Picard. War sometimes is like that, as was the Vietnam War for the USA and for France.

Last edited by Shaka Zulu; June 9 2013 at 06:17 PM.
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Old June 9 2013, 09:02 PM   #19
Crazyewok
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post

The whole idea behind the Dominion War was for it not to be a cakewalk for the Federation-another 'kick in our complacency' to quote Picard. War sometimes is like that, as was the Vietnam War for the USA and for France.
As someone had already said I think the Miranda and Excelleois were not in the same shape they were 100 years ago.

Chances are they have the latest sheilds and were possible weapons installed. There only down side Im betting is there speed as replaceing a weapons or sheild banks is going to be much easier than replaceing the entire engines. And im guessing armor will be a pig to update.


The Lakota seemed to be able to handle its own against the defiant so im guessing Excelloirs at least should not be counted out
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Old June 23 2013, 11:47 AM   #20
Lighthammer
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

I do feel compelled to toss this out.

Crossover episodes while always extremely cool do tend to be endlessly difficult if two series are running at the same time due to SGA guidelines.

I'm no SGA expert, but I know there are a ton of provisions in SGA contracts that asks for some absorbent amount of money for one actor in a series to appear in multiple series airing at the same time. It's not as easy as "hire them as a guest star for this episode" or "You're working 40 hours this week, but you're spending 10 of those hours on the TNG set". SGA does a lot of great things for actors, but it makes crossovers needlessly complicated and expensive :-\. It's simply not practical to have an entire cast from one series show up in another series.

That being said, even with this explanation in full view, considering Picard commanded the 7th Fleet; as much as they are talked about through DS9, one would have expected the Enterprise would have shown up more often then it did, especially for the series finale!
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Old June 24 2013, 12:09 AM   #21
Crazyewok
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

Lighthammer wrote: View Post

That being said, even with this explanation in full view, considering Picard commanded the 7th Fleet;
When was that stated? Plus he was not even a admiral? So he could only be a aid like Sisko was.

Lighthammer wrote: View Post
as much as they are talked about through DS9, one would have expected the Enterprise would have shown up more often then it did, especially for the series finale!
They did not even have to show the crew just the ship in the background blasting away.

The writers really did miss some stupid things out.
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Old June 24 2013, 12:19 AM   #22
Sran
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ Maybe the Federation was losing the war so badly because the bulk of their ships were century old models. Excelsior and Miranda class really?
Have you not heard of system upgrades? And who says those classes represented the bulk of the Federation fleet? What evidence do you have that your assertion is accurate?

AllStarEntprise wrote:
When you have Defiant, Galaxy, Sovereign, Intrepid, Akira and Prometheus class and how much durable and tactically superior those ships are. Whoever was making tactical/battle strategies at StarFleet needs to have their heads checked.
What does the type of ship have to do with specific battle strategies? Ships of a newer class may have superior capabilities, but said superiority has to do with improvements made to computer systems, weapons, and engines. None of those things in and of themselves have anything to do with establishing a tactical advantage.

--Sran
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Old June 24 2013, 12:27 AM   #23
Sran
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Picard is the captain of the flagship but we've seen in TNG "Chain of Command" that the ship can be changed over to another captain quite easily.
Do you actually watch the episodes you cite to back up your arguments? The change in command you're referring to was not an action taken to discipline Picard but a means of assigning a commander experienced in dealing with the Cardassians to the Enterprise while the ship was in close proximity to Cardassian space. It was not a change made lightly, nor was it meant to reflect poorly on the Enterprise crew. Had it been, Jellico would likely have remained in command following Picard's return to Federation space. But don't let facts get in the way of your assertions.

--Sran
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Old June 24 2013, 02:04 AM   #24
solariabsg25
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

Sran wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ Maybe the Federation was losing the war so badly because the bulk of their ships were century old models. Excelsior and Miranda class really?
Have you not heard of system upgrades? And who says those classes represented the bulk of the Federation fleet? What evidence do you have that your assertion is accurate?

AllStarEntprise wrote:
When you have Defiant, Galaxy, Sovereign, Intrepid, Akira and Prometheus class and how much durable and tactically superior those ships are. Whoever was making tactical/battle strategies at StarFleet needs to have their heads checked.
What does the type of ship have to do with specific battle strategies? Ships of a newer class may have superior capabilities, but said superiority has to do with improvements made to computer systems, weapons, and engines. None of those things in and of themselves have anything to do with establishing a tactical advantage.

--Sran
Totally agree Sran.

Even if the Mirandas and Excelsiors are inferior, from TNG and DS9 they are clearly made out to be the bulk of Starfleet. However, it's more than feasable that they are a more than capable design, only being gradually phased out as newer anti-Borg designs were coming online. Were it not for Wolf 359 it's even possible we may have never seen an Akira or Steamrunner, and certainly no Defiant.

If you have 3,000 newer classes (Akira etc) and 7,000 older classes (Miranda) you're going to get your ass kicked if you leave the older ships out of the battle line.

No matter how advanced the Galaxy Class may be, if you're sending her into battle against 20-1 odds, she's going to go down fast.

Just look at Sacrifice of Angels for example. Now, delete all the Mirandas, Excelsiors and Ambassadors from the Federation fleet. The Feds may as well just turn around and go home.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:17 AM   #25
Lighthammer
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
Lighthammer wrote: View Post

That being said, even with this explanation in full view, considering Picard commanded the 7th Fleet;
When was that stated? Plus he was not even a admiral? So he could only be a aid like Sisko was.
It doesn't need to be stated, its fact. This is simply a nature of the beast. You should consider reading up on such things here:

http://www.sagaftra.org/production-c...ion/fact-sheet

Knowing about the business makes it fairly easy to see how and why things are done without being spoon fed explanations of why decisions are made. We don't need to have full details about the cast members contracts to know what is typical for an SGA negotiated contract.

This is generally why you don't see too terribly many crossovers in live action series and when you see them in animations there's often some sort of wonky disconnect (IE when the Fantastic Four crossed into the 90s Spider Man series, they wore different uniforms and had different voice actors even though they were essentially within the same design).

Sometimes unions help a lot, sometimes unions make things endlessly difficult =(.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:33 AM   #26
Lighthammer
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

Sran wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ Maybe the Federation was losing the war so badly because the bulk of their ships were century old models. Excelsior and Miranda class really?
Have you not heard of system upgrades? And who says those classes represented the bulk of the Federation fleet? What evidence do you have that your assertion is accurate?

AllStarEntprise wrote:
When you have Defiant, Galaxy, Sovereign, Intrepid, Akira and Prometheus class and how much durable and tactically superior those ships are. Whoever was making tactical/battle strategies at StarFleet needs to have their heads checked.
What does the type of ship have to do with specific battle strategies? Ships of a newer class may have superior capabilities, but said superiority has to do with improvements made to computer systems, weapons, and engines. None of those things in and of themselves have anything to do with establishing a tactical advantage.

--Sran
I feel like I am almost pointing out the obvious here, but I may as well just to keep everyone on the same page.

Everything up to and including the Galaxy base designs were found to be inferior to the Dominion. Thanks to Wolf 359 almost a decade earlier, the Federation was already well along to upgrading its aging fleet.

Essentially by the time the Dominion War came around, the Federation had already reformatted their shipyards to produce stronger ships so each Excelsior era ship that fell or was decommissioned during the Dominion war meant a new generation ship was replacing it.

Compared to the Klingons and the Romulans, the Federation were the biggests power in sheer numbers already and realistically only the combined fleets of the Klingons and the Romulans could match the Federation in size, but since the Federation seems to be the only group actively preparing for a war against the Borg, they probably jumped ahead greatly in technology compared to the Klingons and Romulans.

At the end of the Dominion War, really, all the Dominion did was gave the Federation a really good reason to put their new fleet into full production. I'm not sure how much the relaunch novels touched on this, but IMHO, that means the Federation should in theory be one the strongest powers in the Galaxy at this point since we have a decent idea whats in all four quadrants.
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Old June 24 2013, 04:33 AM   #27
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

Wading in to murking waters here. In NEM Riker was given command of a ship we never see. The USS Titan. In 2005 there was a contest for the USS TItan pocket books. To design what the ship would look like. Now this is the books so it's canoncity status is shakey.

The Star Trek Online Wiki gives the best description of the ship because it is playable in the game. Also check Memory Beta since Luna class ships are unoffical.

http://sto.gamepedia.com/Reconnaissance_Science_Vessel
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Luna_class

After the Dominion War, Starfleet commissioned the Luna class ships. Which from the sources above classify them as science and reconnaissance vessels.

Remember this is apocryphal since this class of ship was never shown on screen.
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Old June 24 2013, 08:43 AM   #28
Hober Mallow
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

Well, they did do a crossover story of sorts during TNG's seventh season and DS9's second with the introduction of the Maquis. It wasn't a direct crossover, and it was pretty lame. An indirect back-and-forth crossover like that would have been nice with an actual good story.
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Old June 24 2013, 09:21 AM   #29
Lighthammer
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

You know, taking into account that SGA series contracts probably into the way of using the main cast more between the two series, something I just thought of that would have added some more coherence to the series would have been to make much more use of the Guest Star contracts.

This might be messy to look at, but DS9 had a number of recurring characters that were slated as guests. Without knowing a lot more about the physical contracts themselves (which may have been negotiated fairly strictly) we do have characters like Dukat and Martok that probably could have been used better in crossovers. Heck, Marc Alaimo played the first Cardassian Gul we encountered on DS9. If TPTB were a little better at thinking ahead, Garrick should have been the guy who interviewed Picard in Chain of Command. They could have used his disgrace from that episode was reason for being banished.

There are certainly missed opportunities all over the place >.<
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Old June 24 2013, 10:24 AM   #30
solariabsg25
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

Getting to the crossover thing, it really does depend on how the studios want to handle it.

NCIS & NCIS LA have regular cross-over with a single character (Vance) appearing in both - pretty much has to be the case as Vance is playing the NCIS Director, so would start to look odd if he's always referred to off-screen! But others pretty much haven't, the whole cast of LA in an NCIS two-parter which was the pilot anyway, then Abby in one LA episode and that's been it.

CSI/CSI Miami/CSI New York have had a few cross-overs, even a three-part story where one part took place in each show. But once again, not many.

Even Hercules and Xena had few cross-overs, Ares and Autolycus crossed over, Hercules appeared in a couple of Xena episodes and vice-versa, with actors sometimes portraying other characters (Yes Virginia, There Is A Hercules for example).

But Trek itself has usually kept out of the cross-over game, apart from the noted exception of Pilots. Encounter at Farpoint, Emissary, and Caretaker all featured a character from the prior show, to indicate to the audience that this is "real Trek".

They still fitted in a few such as Kurn, Toral, Thomas Riker, Kang/Kor/Koloth, Barclay and Troi, for example, but I think on the whole the powers simply wanted the different shows to be their own animal. Had they wanted to mention Picard as being more involved in the Dominion War, or had a multi-season spanning arc featuring Thomas Riker taking the Eddington Role in the Maquis, or have DS9 mention that they were following up leads in the badlands that may explain the fate of USS Voyager, they would have.
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