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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 27 2013, 08:17 AM   #16
Zameaze
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Re: Trelane from TOS and Q from TNG

nightwind1 wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
....The thing is, TOS is full of these kinds of omnipotent God-like aliens. They seemed to discover a new one every other week. It's odd that by the time TNG rolled around everybody treated the Q Continuum like it was unique...
There actually were not that many on TOS: Apollo from "Who Mourns for Adonais?" and Trelane from "The Squire of Gothos."

You might add Gary Mitchell from "Where No Man Has Gone Before," but he was not an alien. You could add Gorgan from "And the Children Shall Lead" as an undeveloped character and maybe even the Beta XII-A entity from "Day of the Dove" if you are stretching it, but that's about it. I wish there had been more--some great episodes there.
Charlie Evan's "parents"
The Metrons
Arguably, Yarnek
The Organians
None of which was the protagonist of their story.
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Old May 27 2013, 08:21 AM   #17
Zameaze
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Re: Trelane from TOS and Q from TNG

marsomthing wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
....The thing is, TOS is full of these kinds of omnipotent God-like aliens. They seemed to discover a new one every other week. It's odd that by the time TNG rolled around everybody treated the Q Continuum like it was unique...
There actually were not that many on TOS: Apollo from "Who Mourns for Adonais?" and Trelane from "The Squire of Gothos."

You might add Gary Mitchell from "Where No Man Has Gone Before," but he was not an alien. You could add Gorgan from "And the Children Shall Lead" as an undeveloped character and maybe even the Beta XII-A entity from "Day of the Dove" if you are stretching it, but that's about it. I wish there had been more--some great episodes there.
Was the Apollo thing ever explored more in depth? I know he too had a machine to enhance powers, but he claimed to have been a god of humans... So that rules out trelane like character..... Right?
Good point. Apollo did become a giant again after the machine in his temple was destroyed.
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Old May 27 2013, 01:51 PM   #18
Lance
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Re: Trelane from TOS and Q from TNG

Zameaze wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
....The thing is, TOS is full of these kinds of omnipotent God-like aliens. They seemed to discover a new one every other week. It's odd that by the time TNG rolled around everybody treated the Q Continuum like it was unique...
There actually were not that many on TOS: Apollo from "Who Mourns for Adonais?" and Trelane from "The Squire of Gothos."

You might add Gary Mitchell from "Where No Man Has Gone Before," but he was not an alien. You could add Gorgan from "And the Children Shall Lead" as an undeveloped character and maybe even the Beta XII-A entity from "Day of the Dove" if you are stretching it, but that's about it. I wish there had been more--some great episodes there.
There were also the antagonists from "Plato's Stepchildren" as well. At a stretch.
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Old May 27 2013, 03:53 PM   #19
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Re: Trelane from TOS and Q from TNG

Zameaze wrote: View Post
nightwind1 wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post

There actually were not that many on TOS: Apollo from "Who Mourns for Adonais?" and Trelane from "The Squire of Gothos."

You might add Gary Mitchell from "Where No Man Has Gone Before," but he was not an alien. You could add Gorgan from "And the Children Shall Lead" as an undeveloped character and maybe even the Beta XII-A entity from "Day of the Dove" if you are stretching it, but that's about it. I wish there had been more--some great episodes there.
Charlie Evan's "parents"
The Metrons
Arguably, Yarnek
The Organians
None of which was the protagonist of their story.
So what? The point isn't which powerful beings were protagonists of their story. That's irrelevant. We're discussing TOS beings that are similar to Q.

So far we are up to nine

Trelane Squire of Gothos
Apollo Who Mourns for Adonis?
Gary Mitchel Where No Man has Gone Before
Gorgan And the Children Shall Lead
Beta XII-A Entity Day of the Dove
Charlie Evan's 'Parents' Charlie-X
The Metrons Arena
Yarnek The Savage Curtain
Organians Errand of Mercy

And I'll add some more:

Melkotians Specter of the Gun Advanced telepathic race with powers of illusion (Again, another stretch)
Sargon's People Return to Tomorrow Advanced non-corporeal beings able to possess or inhabit another being. (No other powers, though. Another stretch)
Medusans Is There in Truth No Beauty? yet another non-corporeal telepathic race.


So, if we're really going to stretch on some of these, we're up to 12 Advanced telepathic or non-corporeal (or both) species with powers similar to that of Trelane or Q. While not exactly the same, there are enough similarities to imply they aren't all that unique.

And this is just TOS. I wonder how many non-corporeal or telepathic (or both) advanced beings there were in the subsequent series (Nagilum comes to mind).
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Old May 27 2013, 04:19 PM   #20
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: Trelane from TOS and Q from TNG

Shawnster wrote: View Post
We're discussing TOS beings that are similar to Q.

So far we are up to nine

Trelane Squire of Gothos
Apollo Who Mourns for Adonis?
Gary Mitchel Where No Man has Gone Before
Gorgan And the Children Shall Lead
Beta XII-A Entity Day of the Dove
Charlie Evan's 'Parents' Charlie-X
The Metrons Arena
Yarnek The Savage Curtain
Organians Errand of Mercy

And I'll add some more:

Melkotians Specter of the Gun Advanced telepathic race with powers of illusion (Again, another stretch)
Sargon's People Return to Tomorrow Advanced non-corporeal beings able to possess or inhabit another being. (No other powers, though. Another stretch)
Medusans Is There in Truth No Beauty? yet another non-corporeal telepathic race.


So, if we're really going to stretch on some of these, we're up to 12 Advanced telepathic or non-corporeal (or both) species with powers similar to that of Trelane or Q. While not exactly the same, there are enough similarities to imply they aren't all that unique.
I think the big strech additions discussed in the thread are any who required outside influence to gain power--in other words, it was not an inherent ability of their species:

Trelane - he needed a machine to support any of his powers. His parents' ability did not seem God-like.

Mitchell / Dehner: they were born normal human beings transformed by the Galactic Barrier.

Charles Evans: On the surface, the power to turn thought into action or physical reality appears God-like, but we have to remember he was limited, since he did not have the power to bring Janice back, or reverse most of his actions (Uhura's voice and the pain dealt to Kirk & Spock being exceptions).
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Old May 27 2013, 05:18 PM   #21
nightwind1
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Re: Trelane from TOS and Q from TNG

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Shawnster wrote: View Post
We're discussing TOS beings that are similar to Q.

So far we are up to nine

Trelane Squire of Gothos
Apollo Who Mourns for Adonis?
Gary Mitchel Where No Man has Gone Before
Gorgan And the Children Shall Lead
Beta XII-A Entity Day of the Dove
Charlie Evan's 'Parents' Charlie-X
The Metrons Arena
Yarnek The Savage Curtain
Organians Errand of Mercy

And I'll add some more:

Melkotians Specter of the Gun Advanced telepathic race with powers of illusion (Again, another stretch)
Sargon's People Return to Tomorrow Advanced non-corporeal beings able to possess or inhabit another being. (No other powers, though. Another stretch)
Medusans Is There in Truth No Beauty? yet another non-corporeal telepathic race.


So, if we're really going to stretch on some of these, we're up to 12 Advanced telepathic or non-corporeal (or both) species with powers similar to that of Trelane or Q. While not exactly the same, there are enough similarities to imply they aren't all that unique.
I think the big strech additions discussed in the thread are any who required outside influence to gain power--in other words, it was not an inherent ability of their species:

Trelane - he needed a machine to support any of his powers. His parents' ability did not seem God-like.

Mitchell / Dehner: they were born normal human beings transformed by the Galactic Barrier.

Charles Evans: On the surface, the power to turn thought into action or physical reality appears God-like, but we have to remember he was limited, since he did not have the power to bring Janice back, or reverse most of his actions (Uhura's voice and the pain dealt to Kirk & Spock being exceptions).
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Old May 29 2013, 01:45 AM   #22
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Re: Trelane from TOS and Q from TNG

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
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No, I think Trelane was not a Q. An alien similar to a Q, maybe, but here are the inconsistencies:

First, Trelane believed he was representing himself as how humans are, an 18th century retired general and squire, but was almost 500 years off. A Q wouldn't have made that mistake.
Eh? Do you remember the first time we saw Q?

I interpreted that more as Q mocking humanity to say that the federation's explorers hadn't changed all that much since the days of Columbus and the classic Age of Exploration (1500s-1700s, from his, or the Q continuum's, point of view).

Trelane really thought that the 17th century dress was how humans really were then. He genuinely seemed perplexed at Kirk and company's uniforms.

I think it can be fairly said that Trelane was Q-like, but not an actual Q. Sort of like Apollo. There can be more than one god-like race in the universe...at least compared to humans.
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Old May 29 2013, 03:49 AM   #23
Tiberius
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Re: Trelane from TOS and Q from TNG

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No, I think Trelane was not a Q. An alien similar to a Q, maybe, but here are the inconsistencies:
Just playing devil's advocate here...

First, Trelane believed he was representing himself as how humans are, an 18th century retired general and squire, but was almost 500 years off. A Q wouldn't have made that mistake.
But Trelane was a kid, and kids make stupid mistakes like that.

Second, Qs have no need of machinery to augment their powers, as Trelane did.
If Trelane's powers hadn't fully developed, he may have used a machine to augment them.

Third, Trelane never seemed omnipotent and lacked the intelligence of Q.
Again, he was a child.

Fourth, all Q's refer to themselves and other Qs, as "Q."
Trelane was playing, pretending he was some military commander. Trelane might not have been a name his parents gave him. I'm sure back in the 60s there were lots of kids playing with their toys calling themselves Captain Kirk or Mister Spock.

Also,Trelane's parents appeared as glowing green orbs, while Qs usually take humanoid form. While a Q could theoretically appear in any form, they would have had the tendency to take a form that "humans could understand," as Q often would say. One example is Q and the Gray, where the Q Civil War took the form of the American Civil War, so humans could understand what was going on. had Trelane's parents been Qs, I think they would have appeared as humanoid to Kirk.
But the appearance as glowing orbs certainly fits with what Qs can do, and since they were there to get trelane to behave rather than interact with the humans, I don't see this as a particularly large problem.

I think that while the Peter David novel suggests Trelane was a Q, I think it is more likely to say that Roddenberry was channeling some of what he had previously written before (IE Trelane, Gary Mitchell, etc), when he came up with the Q character.
Quite possible.
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Old May 29 2013, 02:12 PM   #24
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Re: Trelane from TOS and Q from TNG

You are most welcome to agree to disagree with me, but here is why I don't think Trelane is a Q:

But Trelane was a kid, and kids make stupid mistakes like that.
from http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Trelane

These clothes, along with his foppish mannerisms, were intended to suggest what he believed conditions on Earth to be at the time. In fact, he was viewing an image of Earth approximately four and a half centuries out of date, perhaps a consequence of the fact he was over nine hundred light years away.
This suggests he was viewing Earth using a device, which led to the error:
If Trelane's powers hadn't fully developed, he may have used a machine to augment them.
Q's own son didn't need a machine to augment him in Voyager, and he was literally a newborn baby.

Trelane was playing, pretending he was some military commander. Trelane might not have been a name his parents gave him. I'm sure back in the 60s there were lots of kids playing with their toys calling themselves Captain Kirk or Mister Spock.
....
But the appearance as glowing orbs certainly fits with what Qs can do, and since they were there to get trelane to behave rather than interact with the humans, I don't see this as a particularly large problem.
I don't deny this is possible, in fact I even acknowledge that it is, but going by what we know on screen, it isn't the typical M.O. of the Q.

An simpler explanation, it seems to me, is he isn't a Q. Space is very big, and there are more than one Q-like species out there.

By your reasoning, it would also infer that the Organians (took the form of a light being), and the Metrons (took the form of a light being),could also be Q. Melkotians (displayed Q-like power, and set the stage for the Earp showdown), Apollo (Q like powers, used a device to augment himself), and even Sylvia and Korob (could be classified as adolescent Q since they use a device and didn't refer to themselves as Q), all displayed Q like power while calling themselves something else, but in the end, we know they are not Q, because they weren't written as Q in the first place, nor were there any retcons to say otherwise.

Basically, like some of these other races, the only two similarities between Trelane and Q, are their power levels, and the fact they wore costumes of past eras in front of humans. However, no where in TNG do they retroactively say Trelane was Q, and during TOS, obviously Q wasn't even conceived yet.

In fact, the only place where Trelane is stated to be a Q is, Q Squared by Peter David. And as I said, for those who read that book and consider it canon, they will disagree with me. But considering I don't consider the Trek books canon, and only consider what I see on screen as canon, I don't consider Trelane a Q. Just Q-like.
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Old May 29 2013, 05:48 PM   #25
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Re: Trelane from TOS and Q from TNG

Zameaze wrote: View Post
Good point. Apollo did become a giant again after the machine in his temple was destroyed.
I thought at that point he was actually losing power, though. Not so much growing as dissipating, "spreading himself on the wind."
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Old May 29 2013, 05:55 PM   #26
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Re: Trelane from TOS and Q from TNG

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Was the Apollo thing ever explored more in depth? I know he too had a machine to enhance powers, but he claimed to have been a god of humans... So that rules out trelane like character..... Right?
He had that "extra organ" in his body....
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Old May 29 2013, 06:07 PM   #27
Shawnster
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Re: Trelane from TOS and Q from TNG

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
You are most welcome to agree to disagree with me, but here is why I don't think Trelane is a Q:
Oh, I don't think Trelane is a Q, either. I thought the idea was ridiculous when that novel came out; and for all the same reasons you mentioned.

It was fun to play along, though.

I discounted Korob and Sylvia because after the destruction of their devices, we saw their true forms and they died without the aid of their devices. They were quite mortal and corporeal.
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Old May 31 2013, 08:05 PM   #28
Zameaze
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Re: Trelane from TOS and Q from TNG

BoredShipCapt'n wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
Good point. Apollo did become a giant again after the machine in his temple was destroyed.
I thought at that point he was actually losing power, though. Not so much growing as dissipating, "spreading himself on the wind."
Yes, he was asking the other gods to "beam him up," and it might have been a last-ditch effort, but it still took power to make himself a giant. From Memory-Alpha: "After the temple was destroyed, Apollo demonstrated that he still possessed some abilities when he expanded his corporeal form."
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