RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,751
Posts: 5,215,999
Members: 24,214
Currently online: 884
Newest member: GregLock

TrekToday headlines

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

New X-Men: Days of Future Past Trailer
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Nimoy to Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone Comic
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

These Are The Voyages TOS Season Two Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

Kirk’s Well Wishes To Kirk
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Quinto In New Starz Series
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Star Trek: Horizon Film
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14

Star Trek: Fleet Captains Game Expansion
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 19 2013, 11:47 PM   #1
WarpFactorZ
Captain
 
Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

Adm. Marcus postponed the attack on the Enterprise when he saw Carol on board, but went on with his orders once she was removed. She really played no pertinent role on the Vengeance, and ended up being beamed right back.

I felt it would have been a more powerful scene -- and given more meaning to Adm Marcus' convictions -- if he had chosen to sacrifice Carol in lieu of his desire for total war. It would have also provided an antithesis to the theme of "family first." Scotty nullified the attack by disabling the Vengeance anyway, so it's not like she would have been killed. Plus, it would have really revealed how much of a bastard he was.
WarpFactorZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 12:13 AM   #2
Nightowl1701
Commander
 
Location: Orlando, FL
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

The point was to show there was a sliver - a tiny sliver - of humanity still left in Marcus. Total bastards don't get to rise to the top of Starfleet, even after Nero. Marcus didn't start out a bad guy, and he'd embarked on Section 31 with noble intentions (protect the Federation from another Nero). Even his minimal crew on the Vengeance would've looked askance at a guy willing to murder his own daughter in cold blood.

And it wasn't so much that he wanted a war with the Klingons as much as "there's gonna be one sooner or later, it's inevitable, why wait for them to throw the first punch? Let's get it over with, while we've got the advantage!" And Khan and his people were, in Marcus' mind and at that moment, an even bigger threat to the Federation than even the Klingons. They had to go, and if Kirk wouldn't kill 'em or hand them over, hey, friendly fire happens sometimes...
Nightowl1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 01:22 AM   #3
WarpFactorZ
Captain
 
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
The point was to show there was a sliver - a tiny sliver - of humanity still left in Marcus.
No, it would have been a much stronger statement to have Marcus be the least human of them all. It would have conveyed the message that, despite genetic engineering and physical and intellectual superiority, the thing that deprives us of our humanity the most is paranoia. They made the point of showing Khan shed tears for his "family" -- a horrible, despotic, murdering family.

So, the contrast of showing Marcus coldly condemn his only daughter to death -- to throw his own under the bus -- in favor of his delusion of an inevitable war, would have completely sent home the point the filmmakers were uncommitted to convey. Irrational fear and paranoia strip us of what it means to be feeling, caring, and civilized.
WarpFactorZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 01:27 AM   #4
beamMe
Fleet Captain
 
beamMe's Avatar
 
Location: Europa
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
The point was to show there was a sliver - a tiny sliver - of humanity still left in Marcus.
No, it would have been a much stronger statement to have Marcus be the least human of them all. It would have conveyed the message that, despite genetic engineering and physical and intellectual superiority, the thing that deprives us of our humanity the most is paranoia. They made the point of showing Khan shed tears for his "family" -- a horrible, despotic, murdering family.

So, the contrast of showing Marcus coldly condemn his only daughter to death -- to throw his own under the bus -- in favor of his delusion of an inevitable war, would have completely sent home the point the filmmakers were uncommitted to convey.
So instead of a more complicated, multilayered character, you'd have preferred a cardboard cut-out?
beamMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 01:29 AM   #5
J. Allen
Squeaky Clean
 
J. Allen's Avatar
 
Location: United States
Send a message via ICQ to J. Allen Send a message via AIM to J. Allen Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to J. Allen Send a message via Yahoo to J. Allen
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

beamMe wrote: View Post
WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
The point was to show there was a sliver - a tiny sliver - of humanity still left in Marcus.
No, it would have been a much stronger statement to have Marcus be the least human of them all. It would have conveyed the message that, despite genetic engineering and physical and intellectual superiority, the thing that deprives us of our humanity the most is paranoia. They made the point of showing Khan shed tears for his "family" -- a horrible, despotic, murdering family.

So, the contrast of showing Marcus coldly condemn his only daughter to death -- to throw his own under the bus -- in favor of his delusion of an inevitable war, would have completely sent home the point the filmmakers were uncommitted to convey.
So instead of a more complicated, multilayered character, you'd have preferred a cardboard cut-out?
Preferably one who can only see in black and white, because those villains are always the best and most well thought out.
__________________
:: :: ::
Visit Brony Kingdom, where all of your wildest dreams will come true.
:: :: ::

-= All fantasy teaches me is that reality sucks. =-
J. Allen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 01:46 AM   #6
WarpFactorZ
Captain
 
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Preferably one who can only see in black and white, because those villains are always the best and most well thought out.
The whole point of the story was exactly that: fear and paranoia drive us to question our values and make possibly irrational decisions based on fear. It was a post-9/11 allegory 12 years too late.

So, Marcus is not one dimensional because he saves his daughter... and then proceeds to kill everyone else as the crotchety general/admiral?! Heh. Hardly salvation there.
WarpFactorZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 01:51 AM   #7
beamMe
Fleet Captain
 
beamMe's Avatar
 
Location: Europa
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
Preferably one who can only see in black and white, because those villains are always the best and most well thought out.
The whole point of the story was exactly that: fear and paranoia drive us to question our values and make possibly irrational decisions based on fear. It was a post-9/11 allegory 12 years too late.

So, Marcus is not one dimensional because he saves his daughter... and then proceeds to kill everyone else as the crotchety general/admiral?! Heh. Hardly salvation there.
"Is there anything you wouldn't do for your family?"

The film had more than just the terrorism/war/drone-theme.
beamMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 01:56 AM   #8
KittyDuran
Lieutenant Commander
 
KittyDuran's Avatar
 
Location: Hungry (like the wolf)
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

And it wasn't so much that he wanted a war with the Klingons as much as "there's gonna be one sooner or later, it's inevitable, why wait for them to throw the first punch? Let's get it over with, while we've got the advantage!"
He also had illusions of grandeur in leading the war.
KittyDuran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 04:20 AM   #9
imranbecks
Lieutenant Commander
 
imranbecks's Avatar
 
Location: Singapore
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

Actually, up until the point with her on the bridge talking to Marcus trying to change his mind, I actually thought Carol was a mole sent by her father... I was suspicious of her character at the beginning since I barely knew about her character from TOS as I never saw all the episodes. I thought it was a father/daughter plan to attack the Enterprise from the inside..hahaha
imranbecks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 04:32 AM   #10
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

The big question is, if he couldn't have beamed her off what would he have done?

The needs of the many..
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 07:07 AM   #11
J. Allen
Squeaky Clean
 
J. Allen's Avatar
 
Location: United States
Send a message via ICQ to J. Allen Send a message via AIM to J. Allen Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to J. Allen Send a message via Yahoo to J. Allen
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
Preferably one who can only see in black and white, because those villains are always the best and most well thought out.
The whole point of the story was exactly that: fear and paranoia drive us to question our values and make possibly irrational decisions based on fear. It was a post-9/11 allegory 12 years too late.

So, Marcus is not one dimensional because he saves his daughter... and then proceeds to kill everyone else as the crotchety general/admiral?! Heh. Hardly salvation there.
No, that wasn't the whole point of the story, there were multiple story points in this movie. The best villains see in shades of gray, and they don't think they're evil in the grand scheme of things. Marcus doesn't think he's the villain, he thinks he's doing what's right. For him, the ends justify the means.

For Khan, he feels justified because he believes vengeance is a righteous response. That is how terrorists think. They believe that what they're doing will redeem society because it is society that has failed them and their standard. They think they're doing good, and the movie makes a point of showing that what you think is righteous and justified isn't necessarily so.
__________________
:: :: ::
Visit Brony Kingdom, where all of your wildest dreams will come true.
:: :: ::

-= All fantasy teaches me is that reality sucks. =-
J. Allen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 22 2013, 06:42 AM   #12
DigificWriter
Rear Admiral
 
Location: West Haven, UT, USA
Re: Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

I can't believe there's actually an argument against Admiral Marcus being a multi-layered antagonist.
__________________
Starbuck: We're all friendlies. So, let's just... be friendly.

"Ze director's cut is ze film you saw in ze theater."
DigificWriter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26 2013, 04:23 AM   #13
Mountie1988
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Re: Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

I loved it when Carol slapped her father. All the power which came along with his rank and ship did not save him from his daughter's outrage.
Mountie1988 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26 2013, 04:29 AM   #14
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

J. Allen wrote: View Post
The best villains see in shades of gray, and they don't think they're evil in the grand scheme of things. Marcus doesn't think he's the villain, he thinks he's doing what's right. For him, the ends justify the means.

For Khan, he feels justified because he believes vengeance is a righteous response. That is how terrorists think. They believe that what they're doing will redeem society because it is society that has failed them and their standard. They think they're doing good, and the movie makes a point of showing that what you think is righteous and justified isn't necessarily so.
Why does it matter what these people "think"? Doesn't make it true. Doesn't make their actions right. Just because they say they're not evil, doesn't mean shit.
__________________
Taysiders in Space. In amungst ye!

"Set phasers tae malky!"
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26 2013, 04:30 AM   #15
Admiral Buzzkill
The Legend
 
Re: Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]

teacake wrote: View Post
The big question is, if he couldn't have beamed her off what would he have done?
He'd let her die.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:09 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.