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Old May 23 2013, 08:30 PM   #91
RXTT
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

Vonnegut, Kafka, Orwell, Murakami, Bukowski, Dostoyevsky....these people did not write fiction just to "entertain." Entertainment is not a dirty word. It is the first step to making your audience think.

Even highly entertaining writers of genre fiction like Robert E. Howard, HP Lovecraft, or Sir Arthur Conan Doyle had bigger goals for their work than just entertainment.


entertainment is anything that keeps you happily busy for any length of time. That can be reading an encyclopedia, or watching a Blues Clues episode with kids, or listening to the first Polvo record.

To drop entertainment wholesale would drop ALL of Trek
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Old May 23 2013, 08:36 PM   #92
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
No. He simply produced 2 movies that have so far been successful. But if it's anything like Batman or Spiderman, It will reboot again after 3 or 4 films. Do we really want to keep starting over and over?
I think so.

After seven hundred hours of material, this is all gravy. Let's see what various creative minds can do with Trek without the restraints of canon. It doesn't mean it'll all be good, but it'll be interesting.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:37 PM   #93
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

CoveTom wrote: View Post
The quote in question about "fresh turkey sandwiches" vs. "Thanksgiving dinner" actually comes from Harve Bennett, but is printed in Shatner's Star Trek Movie Memories book. I don't have the book in front of me, so I can't quote it verbatim, but essentially Bennett says that regardless of what TFF was or was not, it was hurt by the fact that TNG was now on the air on a weekly basis, and since fans didn't have to wait 2 years between new Trek stories, a Trek movie wasn't the special event it had been with the first four films.
Thanks for the correction.

But my point still stands about Abrams not being the only one concerned with competition.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:38 PM   #94
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

I personally think the "restraints" of canon, like all artistic limits and restraints, actually forces the creator to invent more than a fresh re-start does.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:42 PM   #95
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

BillJ wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
No. He simply produced 2 movies that have so far been successful. But if it's anything like Batman or Spiderman, It will reboot again after 3 or 4 films. Do we really want to keep starting over and over?
I think so.

After seven hundred hours of material, this is all gravy. Let's see what various creative minds can do with Trek without the restraints of canon. It doesn't mean it'll all be good, but it'll be interesting.
So you like being shallowly invested in the characters, before they completely reboot the franchise? It takes me more than a few films to do that. I would rather no Trek than reboot after reboot after reboot. Talk about milking a franchise dry.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:44 PM   #96
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
I would rather no Trek than reboot after reboot after reboot.
You can accomplish that right now.

BillJ's right - let's see lots of versions of Trek from here on out.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:46 PM   #97
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
So you like being shallowly invested in the characters, before they completely reboot the franchise?
No.

But I like to see different interpretations. I've spent seven hundred hours in one continuity, I don't ever want to be locked into one continuity for that long again in my lifetime.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:50 PM   #98
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

RXTT wrote: View Post
I personally think the "restraints" of canon, like all artistic limits and restraints, actually forces the creator to invent more than a fresh re-start does.
Why should a writer be forced to verse themselves in seven-hundred hours of material in order to write something?

While I may have watched the episodes dozens of times and can remember lots of it, it's not fair to expect that of a freelance writer. Forcing someone to follow Trek continuity chapter and verse is like tossing an anchor to a drowning man.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:55 PM   #99
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

BillJ wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
So you like being shallowly invested in the characters, before they completely reboot the franchise?
No.

But I like to see different interpretations. I've spent seven hundred hours in one continuity, I don't ever want to be locked into one continuity for that long again in my lifetime.
Fine. But If Star Trek follows the same course as the super hero franchises, you'll only get 6 to 8 hours before they start over again. So we will never go anywhere. Cause they will all have an origin story, Khan story and who knows what else they consider good to re-do.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:11 PM   #100
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
No. He simply produced 2 movies that have so far been successful. But if it's anything like Batman or Spiderman, It will reboot again after 3 or 4 films. Do we really want to keep starting over and over?
I think so.

After seven hundred hours of material, this is all gravy. Let's see what various creative minds can do with Trek without the restraints of canon. It doesn't mean it'll all be good, but it'll be interesting.
So you like being shallowly invested in the characters, before they completely reboot the franchise? It takes me more than a few films to do that. I would rather no Trek than reboot after reboot after reboot. Talk about milking a franchise dry.
If a movie works, you can invest in the characters very quickly. I was invested in Rick and Ilsa by the end of Casablanca, and I didn't need three movies to do so!
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Old May 23 2013, 09:14 PM   #101
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
If a movie works, you can invest in the characters very quickly. I was invested in Rick and Ilsa by the end of Casablanca, and I didn't need three movies to do so!
I agree. I can do that to. But for some reason, they cannot write Star Trek characters in a way for me to do that. And that's been true of all the Star Trek I've seen.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:17 PM   #102
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

RXTT wrote: View Post
I personally HATE re-boots, because it is the easy way to go.
I generally hate them too, but in the case of Star Trek, I think it was very well done by using the existing lore as a backdrop for erasing the previous timeline. Also, I had been saying for a while that Star Trek may need a timeline, if only to make it more accessible with people who didn't know much about it.

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
No. He simply produced 2 movies that have so far been successful. But if it's anything like Batman or Spiderman, It will reboot again after 3 or 4 films. Do we really want to keep starting over and over?
We don't know if that's going to happen yet. Let's have this conversation when we get there, if ever.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Canon has always been Star Treks Achilles. It never benefited anyone besides those who worship it.
Although, for regular viewers, respecting continuity simply helps suspension of disbelief.

RXTT wrote: View Post
Vonnegut, Kafka, Orwell, Murakami, Bukowski, Dostoyevsky....these people did not write fiction just to "entertain."
So ? When I watch a movie, amongst other things, I'm looking to spend time doing something I like. I'm not looking to challenge my worldview. If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't watch a movie.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:17 PM   #103
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

RXTT wrote: View Post
Vonnegut, Kafka, Orwell, Murakami, Bukowski, Dostoyevsky....these people did not write fiction just to "entertain." Entertainment is not a dirty word. It is the first step to making your audience think.
No. They wrote to entertain.

Even highly entertaining writers of genre fiction like Robert E. Howard, HP Lovecraft, or Sir Arthur Conan Doyle had bigger goals for their work than just entertainment.
Yes. Call it earning a living.

They priority for creating something pretty much goes like this: entertainment ---> money.

Didactic pontification is a distant third, that is, unless the artist is a giant, pretentious douche. None of those you mentioned were.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Why should a writer be forced to verse themselves in seven-hundred hours of material in order to write something?
Exactly™.


ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
So we will never go anywhere.
I don't know about you, but I will be merely skipping off to the theatre, perhaps while whistling a jaunty tune.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:18 PM   #104
horatio83
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

Abrams (or the be more precise, O&K) obviously hasn't saved the franchise. It doesn't need even more fanwank and continuity obsession. It needs fresh blood and a clear cut, another Nick Meyer, somebody who doesn't give a crap about came before him.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:19 PM   #105
Belz...
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Re: Did Abrams really save the franchise?

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
I would rather no Trek than reboot after reboot after reboot. Talk about milking a franchise dry.
I would rather Star Trek kept going in a form I dislike than not at all.

BillJ wrote:
While I may have watched the episodes dozens of times and can remember lots of it, it's not fair to expect that of a freelance writer. Forcing someone to follow Trek continuity chapter and verse is like tossing an anchor to a drowning man.
Well you can't expect it of them, but if Paramount had kept a writer's bible at any time, at least some of the major screw-ups, unimportant in the grand scheme of things as they may be, from happening.
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