RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,521
Posts: 5,512,239
Members: 25,138
Currently online: 477
Newest member: Tosty82

TrekToday headlines

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 30 2013, 08:13 PM   #1
stj
Rear Admiral
 
stj's Avatar
 
Location: the real world
The Heart of Into Darkness

For me the bad set design and ignorance of basic reality challenged willing suspension of disbelief. Thus, extended action sequences were deprived of power, becoming boring. Worse, the game of incorporating references to Wrath of Khan instead of telling a story was also boring. (The TV series Hannibal recently did Silence of the Lambs references the same way. That was so boring I couldn't finish even an hour and have never looked back.)

But there is a story of sorts buried beneath the games, between the inert action sequences. The overall arc is Kirk becomes a competent captain. This is unfortunate because that should have been the story of the first movie. Everything else is actually subordinated to that. The peak of the story is the scene where Kirk pleads guilty/takes responsibility before Admiral Marcus, in an effort to save the crew. The emotional gist is supposed to be that Kirk is facing up to his failures, gone into his personal darkness and confronted the demons, or some such.

What did Kirk do wrong that he should blame himself? Follow orders? Not follow the orders of a madmiral? Listen to Spock's advice to not mindlessly assault the Klingon homeworld? Send Scotty to investigate? The movie is not really written, we can only guess.

Unlike the first episode, there really isn't anything for Kirk to feel guilty about, except falsifying a report. Which has nothing to do with the rest of the movie, it was just some short-lived quarrel. There is no payoff in the peak moment of this part of the story, just a perfect hero nobly taking false blame. Which is part of the inadequate characterization of Kirk that the maturation arc in this movie was supposed to fix!

There are a couple of other emotional aspects. The Spock/Uhura we can dispose of with about as much attention as the movie did.

Thus that leaves us Spock's realization when Kirk was dying that being a Vulcan and relying on reason as a guide, on control of emotions, was inadequate. Which is incidentally the moral of that story. There is the fundamental problem that it is still unbelievable that this Kirk and Spock are friends. Trying somehow to quantum leap over that, we have to ask ourselves how exciting it is to learn that reason makes you an asshole and going with the flow of your feelings validates your existence? The answer is, not very.

In fact, you wonder why they trouble to write Spock at all. I don't mind that this Spock doesn't serve as a fantasy figure for adolescents troubled by sexual feelings, fulfilling a daydream where those icky feelings are magically gone. But Spock was always more than that, a validation of intellectual interests. This Spock solemnly affirms that the goal is impossible and undesirable in a moment of crisis. The superiority of feeling over thought is a cliché. Spock is apparently just here so it can be Star Trek, a commercial hook.

Cliches, marketing, juvenile daydreams about a hero suffering unjustly (before he kicks ass, naturally.) When we go Into Darkness, we see that there really isn't much heart at all.
__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2013, 08:31 PM   #2
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: The Heart of Into Darkness

I entirely disagree.

BTW, is that the royal "we" you're using there, or do you have a mouse in your pocket?
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2013, 09:10 PM   #3
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: The Heart of Into Darkness

I'm with Buzzkill, here. Another soapbox thread. Don't we already have one for opinions about this movie ?
__________________
And that's my opinion.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2013, 09:13 PM   #4
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: The Heart of Into Darkness

Well, I very much enjoyed it. The story, the characters, even the action and set design. Sorry you didn't, stj.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2013, 09:14 PM   #5
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: The Heart of Into Darkness

Belz... wrote: View Post
Another soapbox thread. Don't we already have one for opinions about this movie ?
Posting an opinion or review in the "opinions and reviews" threads? How much special attention is that going to get you?
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2013, 09:58 PM   #6
EnsignRicky
Commodore
 
EnsignRicky's Avatar
 
Location: Pre-Apocalyptic Earth
Re: The Heart of Into Darkness

I like Hannibal.
__________________
Use Only As Directed
EnsignRicky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2013, 10:27 PM   #7
RoJoHen
Awesome
 
RoJoHen's Avatar
 
Location: QC, IL, USA
Re: The Heart of Into Darkness

Spock is young and still figuring out who he is. I don't know that we've ever actually seen Spock this young, except maybe in "The Cage" (and that Spock didn't have his homeworld blow up or his mom die right in front of his eyes). These characters are not yet who they grow up to be, and that's part of the point of these new stories.
__________________
I am the Quintessential Admiral.
RoJoHen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2013, 10:51 PM   #8
stj
Rear Admiral
 
stj's Avatar
 
Location: the real world
Re: The Heart of Into Darkness

stj wrote: View Post
I don't mind that this Spock doesn't serve as a fantasy figure for adolescents troubled by sexual feelings, fulfilling a daydream where those icky feelings are magically gone.
Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
I entirely disagree.
Wow.
So that's the kind of judgment it takes to be a fan of Into Darkness.

Belz is correct, even though the people who made the movie were trying to do more than in the first one, there simply isn't anything worth discussing. My mistake.
__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.

Last edited by M'Sharak; May 31 2013 at 05:25 AM. Reason: missing quote attributions restored
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2013, 10:57 PM   #9
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: The Heart of Into Darkness

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Spock is young and still figuring out who he is. I don't know that we've ever actually seen Spock this young, except maybe in "The Cage" (and that Spock didn't have his homeworld blow up or his mom die right in front of his eyes). These characters are not yet who they grow up to be, and that's part of the point of these new stories.
Actually, OldPrimeSpock is more in touch with feelings than he was during TOS or TMP. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end, after all. This Spock is just different.
__________________
And that's my opinion.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2013, 11:00 PM   #10
RoJoHen
Awesome
 
RoJoHen's Avatar
 
Location: QC, IL, USA
Re: The Heart of Into Darkness

Belz... wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Spock is young and still figuring out who he is. I don't know that we've ever actually seen Spock this young, except maybe in "The Cage" (and that Spock didn't have his homeworld blow up or his mom die right in front of his eyes). These characters are not yet who they grow up to be, and that's part of the point of these new stories.
Actually, OldPrimeSpock is more in touch with feelings than he was during TOS or TMP. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end, after all. This Spock is just different.
I realize that, but Old Spock has had an entire lifetime to find a balance between logic and emotion. NuSpock is still learning, and in many cases he is overcompensating with logic to shield himself from emotion. Spock screaming "Khaaaan!," silly as it may have looked, was probably the result of his pent-up, suppressed emotions finally exploding out of him.
__________________
I am the Quintessential Admiral.
RoJoHen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2013, 11:07 PM   #11
Robert_T_April
Captain
 
Robert_T_April's Avatar
 
Location: Yesterday's Enterprise
Re: The Heart of Into Darkness

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Spock is young and still figuring out who he is. I don't know that we've ever actually seen Spock this young, except maybe in "The Cage" (and that Spock didn't have his homeworld blow up or his mom die right in front of his eyes). These characters are not yet who they grow up to be, and that's part of the point of these new stories.
I completely agree. Watching these new characters grow, and mature together is a very enjoyable aspect of this whole reboot.
Robert_T_April is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2013, 11:42 PM   #12
sj4iy
Commander
 
sj4iy's Avatar
 
Location: US
Re: The Heart of Into Darkness

I liked it and it was awesome in every way.
sj4iy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 31 2013, 02:11 AM   #13
BeatleJWOL
Captain
 
BeatleJWOL's Avatar
 
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Send a message via AIM to BeatleJWOL Send a message via Yahoo to BeatleJWOL
Re: The Heart of Into Darkness

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Spock screaming "Khaaaan!," silly as it may have looked, was probably the result of his pent-up, suppressed emotions finally exploding out of him.
Which could be argued as the early onset of pon farr.

That's right, folks, you heard it here first: the third Abrams Trek film will be in part based on Amok Time.

You're welcome.
BeatleJWOL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 31 2013, 02:29 AM   #14
RoJoHen
Awesome
 
RoJoHen's Avatar
 
Location: QC, IL, USA
Re: The Heart of Into Darkness

BeatleJWOL wrote: View Post
RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Spock screaming "Khaaaan!," silly as it may have looked, was probably the result of his pent-up, suppressed emotions finally exploding out of him.
Which could be argued as the early onset of pon farr.

That's right, folks, you heard it here first: the third Abrams Trek film will be in part based on Amok Time.

You're welcome.
Ooh. Interesting.
__________________
I am the Quintessential Admiral.
RoJoHen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 31 2013, 03:02 AM   #15
MauriceNavidad
Vice Admiral
 
MauriceNavidad's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
View MauriceNavidad's Twitter Profile
Re: The Heart of Into Darkness

FYI, from the rules M'sharak posted about reviews.

Now that the movie is at long last arriving in theatres, people will want to be posting reviews of their own or linking to reviews written by others. These should go in the Grading & Discussion thread you see pinned at the top of the forum,...
__________________
* * *
“Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.”
― Winston S. Churchill
MauriceNavidad is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:10 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.