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Old May 23 2013, 08:43 PM   #31
siskokid888
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

So he is going with Aquinas instead of Augustine. A little more tolerant. Still all bullshat though.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:12 PM   #32
Tora Ziyal
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
People are all broken
I like you, but... that's bullshit. Damaging bullshit, too.
We all have weaknesses of some sort, we have all made mistakes, we have all been hurt at some time. That's all I mean. Not that we're all bad or something. You think that's bullshit?

Last edited by Tora Ziyal; May 23 2013 at 09:23 PM.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:24 PM   #33
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
People are all broken
I like you, but... that's bullshit. Damaging bullshit, too.
Hmm, how come? Everybody's made mistakes, everybody's hurt and been hurt.

Or basically what she said just above me, lol. Especially the "not that we're all bad."
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Old May 23 2013, 09:29 PM   #34
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

Things are broken. Not people.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:32 PM   #35
Gov Kodos
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

Kestrel wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
People are all broken
I like you, but... that's bullshit. Damaging bullshit, too.
Hmm, how come? Everybody's made mistakes, everybody's hurt and been hurt.

Or basically what she said just above me, lol. Especially the "not that we're all bad."
To me it still smacks of people as sinners or fallen from some perfect form in short Christian guilt. Having limitations such as a disability, or less facility at math or languages, or having made some mistake to be rectified does not make one broken or fallen in some fashion.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:38 PM   #36
Tora Ziyal
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

^True, it does. To me, that is not a problem, because no matter how good we are -- and I do believe that most people are mostly good -- we all still do some bad things. One way some people/religions describe that is by saying that we are all sinners.

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Things are broken. Not people.
Then suggest a better word for what I was describing.
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Old May 23 2013, 09:43 PM   #37
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
People are all broken
I like you, but... that's bullshit. Damaging bullshit, too.
We all have weaknesses of some sort, we have all made mistakes, we have all been hurt at some time. That's all I mean. Not that we're all bad or something. You think that's bullshit?
Obviously you are entirely correct. I am an ex-Catholic but I don't think that original sin / fall from paradise are bad literal-religious ways to express what you described in plain English.

I think what some people do have a problem with though is the way that the Catholic church has historically approached this, with confession (oh, I am so bad, I have sinned, punish me) on the one hand and all the songs about the glory of God which are uplifting (it is like a spiritual drug, it makes you feel godo for some time).

I think that an ideal church should be a place where people can "lower their shields" and show how broken they are. Peter Rollins can it express better than me. And I guess that the early Christian communities which consisted of many poor people and outsiders were more similar to this than post-Constantine Christianity.
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Last edited by horatio83; May 23 2013 at 10:00 PM.
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Old May 23 2013, 10:11 PM   #38
Tora Ziyal
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

horatio83 wrote: View Post
I think what some people do have a problem with though is the way that the Catholic church has historically approached this, with confession (oh, I am so bad, I have sinned, punish me) on the one hand and all the songs about the glory of God which are uplifting (it is like a spiritual drug, it makes you feel godo for some time).

I think that an ideal church should be a place where people can "lower their shields" and show how broken they are.
Indeed. And, actually, confession -- or the Sacrament of Reconciliation, to use the current term -- can be a good place to lower one's shields, when the priest approaches it that way. Unfortunately, they usually don't.
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Old May 23 2013, 10:19 PM   #39
iguana_tonante
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Things are broken. Not people.
Then suggest a better word for what I was describing.
The problem is that that kind of language (broken, fallen, evil, sinners, etc) shifts the blame from what we do to what we are. It takes away personal responsibility. "Good" and "evil" are just labels for promoting or censoring behaviours that are beneficial or harmful: they are not states of being.
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Old May 23 2013, 10:34 PM   #40
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

Even being one of those who believes that one gets to Heaven by faith in Christ, I think this is a fine thing for the Pope to say. Good on him.
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Old May 23 2013, 10:35 PM   #41
horatio83
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
I think what some people do have a problem with though is the way that the Catholic church has historically approached this, with confession (oh, I am so bad, I have sinned, punish me) on the one hand and all the songs about the glory of God which are uplifting (it is like a spiritual drug, it makes you feel godo for some time).

I think that an ideal church should be a place where people can "lower their shields" and show how broken they are.
Indeed. And, actually, confession -- or the Sacrament of Reconciliation, to use the current term -- can be a good place to lower one's shields, when the priest approaches it that way. Unfortunately, they usually don't.
I think the problem is that you just report your big mistakes when you confess and the guilt is partly taken away from you. I'd have to quote Kirk here "I don't want my pain taken away from me, I need my pain".

I think a community (which is what church, ecclesia means after all) instead of just one person other person a social space which consists to lower your shields, show how weak and broken you are (this is broader than just confessing mistakes) ... and paradoxically gain strength precisely via being able to do this instead of suppressing your brokenness or doing things that make you directly feel good like we do most of the time.
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Old May 23 2013, 10:42 PM   #42
Timelord Victorious
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

Not to become the one to drag this thread down, but i thought of something else.

While it is indeed good to not openly condemn other beliefs or non beliefs, but he said good people go to heaven, too.

Now, he didn't say what makes a person a good person.

As far as I know, if you are gay, use condoms, had an abortion, etc, than you don't qualify at all.
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Old May 23 2013, 11:01 PM   #43
horatio83
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
The problem is that that kind of language (broken, fallen, evil, sinners, etc) shifts the blame from what we do to what we are. It takes away personal responsibility. "Good" and "evil" are just labels for promoting or censoring behaviours that are beneficial or harmful: they are not states of being.
Sinning is obviously a choice. Evil is a bit more complex and depends on what religious text you take and how you read it but if you take the Lucifer story it is also a matter of choice. If you read it through Tolkien's Silmarillion it becomes even more obvious that it is a matter of choice. Not that I appreciate these stories, while the guys who followed Melkor did not listen to their own music in Tolkien's creation myth the main point of both stories is evil = not respecting patriarchal authority.

The fall from paradise, well, the superficial and literal (just because there are some fundamentalists who read their religious texts literal doesn't mean that you should do the same mistake) reading of "you take the apple, you get punished" doesn't suffice IMO.
Human beings differ from animals because he hunger for knowledge and this very knowledge makes us those crazy creatures who we are. We are aware of our mortality in an abstract sense, not just in a concrete sense like animals and we are unlike animals not hedonists. Take unrequited love, only humans can become even more obsessed whereas all other apes are pragmatic and choose another mate.

So our intelligence, self-awareness and free will make us pretty crazy creatures in some ways and fallen or broken are in my opinion just religious-mythological terms for this. I am an hardcore atheist but I don't think that the ancients have been that stupid. They didn't write clear essays, they expressed themselves via fiction / mythology / religion and sometimes you can find interesting ideas in these texts. It is e.g. no coincidence that Freud found the best examples for his theories in such old mythological texts.
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Old May 23 2013, 11:25 PM   #44
Lt. Uhura-Brown
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Things are broken. Not people.
Then suggest a better word for what I was describing.
Imperfect.
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Old May 23 2013, 11:57 PM   #45
iguana_tonante
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Re: Pope: Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Sinning is obviously a choice.
Yeah but since the idea is that we are sinners, what choice do we have? We must sin, that's our nature. Sure, we can avoid sin for a while, but we can't avoid it forever. As sinners, sin is what defines us. That's the point. To overcome our sinful nature, we must obviously look outside, to an external agent of salvation, to rescue us from ourselves, and deliver us to a prize we can't achieve on our own.

That's the whole point of revealed religions. To create a need we didn't have before, and act to fulfill it. Kinda like marketing.


horatio83 wrote: View Post
It is e.g. no coincidence that Freud found the best examples for his theories in such old mythological texts.
That's because both Freud and mythology are weird in the head.
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