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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 28 2013, 06:03 PM   #1
Captain Kathryn
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Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

I just started Season 6 of DS9 and I just have to say I'm really disgusted by what Dukat did. Why bother having all of those episodes showing he "changed" when obviously he just goes back to his old self? I have to admit I love the power struggle between himself and the Dominion leader on the station, someone to take him down a peg. But, I am really upset that they bothered doing all of that character development with his daughter and him being cast out from his family, etc. only to have him go back to being his arrogant self who doesn't care about anyone. I understand it's supposed to surprise you and I guess it's one of those things where when you have nothing, you've got nothing to lose...but still.

And...Jake staying on the station after it had been occupied by the Dominion...that's just ridiculous. I would have thought Sisko would have dragged Jake off of the station crying rather than let him stay there even if he is "a man". Sisko just conveniently realizes Jake isn't on the Defiant after they had already left? I would think I would want know where my son is during a Dominion invasion of the station. I don't think Jake should have been allowed to be on the station OR a Starfleet ship. He should have been sent back to Earth. But I understand there is another plan for him (writing reports about the truth about the Dominion occupation of the station) and that the station is not really dangerous as long as he stays on their good side.

And I was also pretty mad that Starfleet did absolutely nothing to protect the station. I understand they had another plan...to get ships together later on and then destroy where the White was being distributed, and so on. But just allowing the station to be taken over without sending ANY backup for Sisko seemed a little unreal to me. I get they had another plan and I get that Sisko was aware of it...but still. I am sure they will go back and retake the station, but still...if I were Sisko I would have felt a little bit betrayed by Starfleet. It seems as though they never sent any reinforcements ANY time the Dominion came to the station or near the station. Not just this time, but other times as well. What about the other 150 planets that are in the Federation? None of them had any ships to spare? Seriously? I guess protecting the station would have been the wrong choice and it's better to go after the source (the White distribution that keeps the Jem'Hadar alive, etc.), but as I was watching I was just like....really? There is no one that can help? I know they all meet up later and many Federation ships get destroyed, just in the moment I felt like Sisko was a little bit betrayed.
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Old April 28 2013, 06:18 PM   #2
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Re: Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

Well, Dukat's a complicated character. During seasons three through early five, he is often helping the good guys. This isn't because he's reformed or seen the light though. To me, Dukat is a Cardassian patriot. If it's in Cardassia's interests to work with Sisko, he'll do it. On the reverse side of the coin, he has no compunction whatsoever about "betraying" them. It wasn't really much of a betrayal either. His relationship with Ziyal... will definitely be explored more during early season 6 let's just say. He does have a huge soft spot for family, even if his ruthlessness runs contrary to that at times. This is a division within himself that will come to bear.

Jake staying on the station? I give that one a pass. They're evacuating the station quite hastily, under fire, and Sisko's got a lot more going on than just checking to see if Jake followed instructions, when he's clearly a smart guy. I can see it when they're doing a final head count they realize he's not there. It's not like they had time to check roll to see if everyone was on board as Dukat's final attack wave is incoming.

The whole premise of the minefield is, that it's self sustaining(through magic apparently) and can't be disarmed or removed. So now that it's up, the wormhole is closed and the station ceases to be that important. So while the Dominion and Cardassian fleets are committed to attacking the Station, the Federation and Klingon fleets are free to hit some real important targets. To me this was one of the best season ending scenes. The Defiant joining the Federation/Klingon fleet. It wasn't so much a cliff hanger as... a promise of things to come. When I first watched it... it was agonizing having to wait six months for the next season!

Season 6 opens on a real... surreal note too. Dukat's giving the captain's log, Weyoun and Damar are working in Ops. Both of them are excellent characters and will very quickly cease being just background characters. I say Damar even surpasses Dukat in so many ways(to me his character arc is second best only beaten by Nog's). As for never sending reinforcements to the station? Did you forget that Federation/Romulan/Klingon fleet defending the station in By Inferno's Light when Dukat joined the Dominion?

Season 6.. well it starts the war arc which for better or worse really ends up defining DS9 on so many levels. A lot of the best stories are yet to come
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Old April 28 2013, 06:19 PM   #3
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Re: Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

When I originally watched that story arc, I got the feeling that the station is simply not as important to the rest of the Federation as it is to Sisko, the Bajorans, or us viewers. I enjoyed the occupation story, so I didn't worry about it too much.

Don't worry too much about Dukat. All that character development was not pointless. You'll see.
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Old April 28 2013, 06:58 PM   #4
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Re: Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

R. Star wrote: View Post
Well, Dukat's a complicated character. During seasons three through early five, he is often helping the good guys. This isn't because he's reformed or seen the light though. To me, Dukat is a Cardassian patriot. If it's in Cardassia's interests to work with Sisko, he'll do it. On the reverse side of the coin, he has no compunction whatsoever about "betraying" them. It wasn't really much of a betrayal either. His relationship with Ziyal... will definitely be explored more during early season 6 let's just say. He does have a huge soft spot for family, even if his ruthlessness runs contrary to that at times. This is a division within himself that will come to bear.

Jake staying on the station? I give that one a pass. They're evacuating the station quite hastily, under fire, and Sisko's got a lot more going on than just checking to see if Jake followed instructions, when he's clearly a smart guy. I can see it when they're doing a final head count they realize he's not there. It's not like they had time to check roll to see if everyone was on board as Dukat's final attack wave is incoming.

The whole premise of the minefield is, that it's self sustaining(through magic apparently) and can't be disarmed or removed. So now that it's up, the wormhole is closed and the station ceases to be that important. So while the Dominion and Cardassian fleets are committed to attacking the Station, the Federation and Klingon fleets are free to hit some real important targets. To me this was one of the best season ending scenes. The Defiant joining the Federation/Klingon fleet. It wasn't so much a cliff hanger as... a promise of things to come. When I first watched it... it was agonizing having to wait six months for the next season!

Season 6 opens on a real... surreal note too. Dukat's giving the captain's log, Weyoun and Damar are working in Ops. Both of them are excellent characters and will very quickly cease being just background characters. I say Damar even surpasses Dukat in so many ways(to me his character arc is second best only beaten by Nog's). As for never sending reinforcements to the station? Did you forget that Federation/Romulan/Klingon fleet defending the station in By Inferno's Light when Dukat joined the Dominion?

Season 6.. well it starts the war arc which for better or worse really ends up defining DS9 on so many levels. A lot of the best stories are yet to come
Oh yeah I didn't mean that I'm not enjoying it. Some things just frustrated me while I was watching because I do care so much about the characters now.

And yeah I heard Season 6 is one of the best. I am on episode 3 now so I have a lot left to go.
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Old April 29 2013, 02:44 PM   #5
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Re: Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

What frustrated me is exactly what they did with Dukat in seasons 3 and 4!
That was the bit that never quite rang true for me, that seemed out of character.
I was worried they'd just water him down so much in subsequent seasons you couldn't take him seriously as an antagonist anymore.
When he announced the deal he'd struck with the Dominion I thought, "finally. Here's the character we've come to love to loathe. Welcome back."
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Old April 29 2013, 05:02 PM   #6
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Re: Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

ha! If you thought what they did to Dukat's character THERE was bad, just wait until you get past the occupation arc. He becomes unrecognizable, almost a completely different character.
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Old April 29 2013, 05:07 PM   #7
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Re: Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

I know!! I've posted an entire rant on it some while back!
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Old April 30 2013, 02:40 AM   #8
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Re: Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

Just watched the episode where Dukat's daughter Ziyal dies... that was so sad. Even though I hate him, I really did feel terrible for him and for Ziyal. She didn't deserve that. D:
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Old April 30 2013, 03:12 AM   #9
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Re: Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
Just watched the episode where Dukat's daughter Ziyal dies... that was so sad. Even though I hate him, I really did feel terrible for him and for Ziyal. She didn't deserve that. D:
Take Dukat's own words.. "Rom is an enemy of the state, and enemies of the state deserve what they get." Well, your right hand man took that to heart, Dukat.

Ziyal pretty much is -the- tragic character and the namesake of the episode. Her death was tragic and will have consequences yet to come for Dukat.
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Old April 30 2013, 03:23 AM   #10
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Re: Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

I'm watching the episode you referenced now. I am surprised they have not mentioned her to Damar.
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Old April 30 2013, 05:56 AM   #11
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Re: Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

Do they even know that Demar was the one who killed her?
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Old April 30 2013, 10:15 AM   #12
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Re: Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

I believe that Kira makes a mention about it in season 7 when she helps the Cardassian ressistance, [/spoiler] when Damar's family is killed by the Dominion [spoiler]
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Old April 30 2013, 01:10 PM   #13
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Re: Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

USS Firefly wrote: View Post
*snip*
Firstly, you have the spoiler tags backwards so they don't work. Secondly, you posted a spoiler outside the confines of the tags anyway. Since this appears to be Captain Kathryn's first time watching the show, perhaps you could edit your post?
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Old April 30 2013, 02:06 PM   #14
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Re: Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

It's okay! I already peeked into some stuff to come. I'm okay with some spoilers.

But yeah those spoiler tags are backwards lol.
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Old April 30 2013, 02:15 PM   #15
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Re: Dukat and other thoughts while ending Season 5

Captain Kathryn, I wish I was in your shoes, watching DS9 for the first time again. I love DS9, it beats all other Trek with a big stick (IMO). It has some of the best story telling and characters that shift and change over the years (even recurring ones such as Dukat).

I recently had a mammoth rewatching of the entire series, which reminded me of lots of little bits and pieces I'd forgotten, whilst reminding me just why I love it!
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