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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 18 2013, 04:56 AM   #1
hiddenderek
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What did you think of the... er.. homage scene? (spoilers)

Obvious spoilers below.

I thought it was great and touching when I first saw the movie. Walking away from the film, I was happy that it turned out to be a fun and energetic homage to star trek II. Then I started actually thinking about it a little.

Seriously... uh... why did he even say that? Why did they reenact that iconic scene motion for motion? He's only known Kirk for a year. The whole damn point of the original scene in Wrath of Khan was to teach Kirk a lesson that its time to stop cheating death and start facing the consequences. This time they barley know each other and the situation is reversed and there is literally no reason for the scene. Its just a reenactment for the sake of a reenactment. There's no soul, no reason, no nothing. Its a lifeless shell. When he says, "Khan!!" its almost like he's INSULTING star trek because of this. Its by far THE worst thing about the entire reboot.

This isn't even a matter of being overcritical, its glaringly obvious and almost painful. Oh yeah... what did you think? What are your opinions? I think I've went on with mine long enough.
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Old May 18 2013, 04:58 AM   #2
Phily B
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Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene?

It doesn't matter if he'd known him for a year, they'd grown pretty close regardless. I know it means more in TWOK because they'd been together for so long, but still...

I thought the scene was beautiful, though I did cringe the first time the second and third time, I actually liked it.
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Old May 18 2013, 04:58 AM   #3
datalogan
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Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene?

Funny, I was just starting another thread about this very thing:

Remember Kirk's iconic “Khan” scream from Star Trek II?
While some have said it was just Shatner overacting, I believe Kirk was purposely exaggerating that scream. It’s Kirk who is overacting, not (just) Shatner.

Remember what was happening in the movie at that moment. Sure, Khan had just stole Genesis, and he had chosen to leave Kirk down on the planetoid to stew (“buried alive”), and there were a number of people that had just died (including Clark Terrell and a scientist). There were plenty of reasons to be frustrated and angry. But Kirk also had knowledge that Khan didn’t have. This is just shortly after Kirk and Spock had talked over the comms in “code”. Kirk knew that the Enterprise would be repaired and in much better fighting shape in just under 2 hours. And he knew that he still had good comms with the Enterprise. And he knew that Khan did not know these things. (Of course, the other people in the Genesis caves also did not know these things. Kirk never told them; possibly because he likes to show off.)
Yes, Kirk was angry and frustrated. But not as much as he seemed. I think Kirk purposely exaggerated that scream because he wanted to mislead Khan. He wanted Khan to think that Khan really did have the upper hand, that Kirk was becoming a little unglued, that Kirk really was “buried alive”. But that wasn’t true. Kirk was not becoming unglued. He knew he just needed to wait about 2 hours, then call Spock and they could beam up and go after Khan again. I think it’s a brilliant scene. It really shows you how great a strategist Kirk is, how much he was playing Khan. It also shows you how full-of-himself Kirk was; because he didn’t share his plan with anyone. He was cocky; he thought he was untouchable; and that all comes crashing down when he has to lose Spock later in the movie.
I like the layers on layers that this scene represents in the movie. And it’s one of those moments (like the Kobayashi Maru scenario) where the characters are acting, not just the actors.

All that being said, the "Khan" scream from nuSpock in STiD just bugs me. The only reason Kirk screamed like that in STII was because he was acting on an open comm with Khan to throw Khan off. But that's not the case in STiD with nuSpock's scream. And yet nuSpock's scream in STiD seems louder and more anguished than Kirk's in STII. Are we supposed to believe that nuSpock's Vulcan-controlled emotions result in a louder scream than Kirk's "faked" scream? Doesn't seem right to this fan. Remember when (the original TOS) Spock was faced with Kirk's death in "Amok Time"?--a time when his Vulcan emotions were very much at the surface due to his pon farr--Spock did not scream in anguish or yell at the killer (himself). He kept himself in check. And even later, when he found out Kirk was not dead, he only reacted with a "soft" shout--and then quickly got himself back into control within seconds. Yet this nuSpock lost so much control that he went on an almost murderous rampage to attack Khan--a man possibly not even directly responsible for Kirk's death. Kirk died to stop the ship from falling, which was due to the power loss--really unexplained in the film--that happened after Khan's ship was taken out by torpedoes. Yes, most likely it was due to Khan's latest attack, but also could have been caused by Section 31's earlier attack or sabotage.

We just have to keep making excuses for nuSpock's emotions coming out all the time. He's young. His planet /race/mother was destroyed. He mind melded with an emotional dying man. He's lost his "best" friend--who he's only known a year or so. And yes, I know Vulcan emotions are actually much more "powerful" than Human ones. But Vulcan upbringing should have prepared Spock for that more. I'm getting tired of having to explain away all this non-Vulcan behavior--all this non-Spock-like behavior. Hopefully in the next film we'll move beyond this young version of the crew and on to a version closer to the TOS version I like.
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Old May 18 2013, 05:03 AM   #4
datalogan
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Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene?

Here's an answer to the question--from another site--that was endorsed by the writer, Bob Orci:

In WoK, Spock’s definitive declaration of friendship, and his death, are the culmination of a decades’ long relationship between him and Kirk. They both know already that Spock has always been his friend, that their friendship has defined them, but for whatever reason it’s never been said out loud. Now, in his final moments, Spock wants to say it. He wants it on the record, so to speak. But he’s only stating the obvious.
This time, in the altered timeline, these two guys haven’t got that history. What they’ve got is frustration and misunderstanding and cross purposes and, for Kirk, a heads up from Spock Prime that they’re supposed to be life long friends. So he doesn’t quite get that it’s just not happening, and Spock – who’s never had a friend, doesn’t know what to do with a friend, doesn’t know how to be a friend – he’s just doing what he knows how to do, what he’s been taught is the right thing to do, and is genuinely shocked when it keeps backfiring on him. There’s a part of him that wants the friendship, knows he needs the friendship, even feels the friendship, but he’s not capable of articulating that in any way.
So Kirk’s death is a catalyst, it’s the light bulb going on, it’s the you don’t know what you’ve got ’til it’s gone moment, where finally he understands. It doesn’t matter that we, the audience, know that the death won’t stick. Spock and Kirk have no reason to think it won’t. So that is a real moment for them, and it’s hugely powerful, I think. Spock’s death in WoK is the coda to their shared lives … but Kirk’s death in ID is the defining moment that propels them into that legendary friendship. For Spock’s sake, Kirk wants him to understand that he put his career on the line to save him because he matters, because some things are more important than the rules. But for his own sake too he needs Spock to understand that, or what was the point? And the fact that Spock does get it, and says so, that’s his reward. That’s him knowing he didn’t do what he did for nothing. That Spock Prime was right.
So it’s not about being unoriginal, it’s not about disrespecting the source material, it’s about reinterpreting, reimagining, taking a pivotal moment in history and bending it around the fact that nothing in this timeline will be precisely as it was in the original. Which would be the whole point.
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Old May 18 2013, 05:06 AM   #5
hiddenderek
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Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene?

datalogan wrote: View Post
Here's an answer to the question--from another site--that was endorsed by the writer, Bob Orci:
Do you know which site that was? I'd like to check it out :O
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Old May 18 2013, 05:41 AM   #6
M'Sharak
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Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene?

hiddenderek wrote: View Post
datalogan wrote: View Post
Here's an answer to the question--from another site--that was endorsed by the writer, Bob Orci:
Do you know which site that was? I'd like to check it out :O
Supposed to have been in a comment thread at TrekMovie, made by someone named Karen. I find it quoted in several places but none have links back to the source.

I'll try looking further.

Edit:

I missed the link on the Reddit page the first time. Go here, scroll down to comment 66. Response from boborci is in comment 68.
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Last edited by M'Sharak; May 18 2013 at 05:46 AM. Reason: link added
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Old May 18 2013, 05:46 AM   #7
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Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene? (spoilers)

If a man I'd worked with, served under, fought side by side with, befriended, and otherwise was a major part of my life were suddenly killed due to the actions of a calculating killer, I'd be pissed, whether I'd known him for a year or ten years. Spock has seen so much death, so many people he cared about have died: His mother, his people, his former Captain (Pike), his newfound friend (Kirk), that it finally made him snap in a fit of rage, and he knew exactly where to direct that rage. I found it appropriate.
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Old May 18 2013, 05:46 AM   #8
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene? (spoilers)

When did "iconic" come to mean "it's familiar and we like it a lot?"
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Old May 18 2013, 05:52 AM   #9
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Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene? (spoilers)

It's clear that Kirk and Spock are very close in this movie. Whatever has gone down between them in the last year has bonded them together.
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Old May 18 2013, 06:09 AM   #10
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Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene? (spoilers)

I loved it, and all the parallels present. Brilliant and unexpected to reverse roles in this universe.
Now, it doesnt have the impact of the TWOK scene. I don't think it's meant to. It couldn't. Nimoy Spock was a pop icon for 20 years when TWOK came out. This movie is a very different story. But it was a fun twist of fate.
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Old May 18 2013, 06:28 AM   #11
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Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene? (spoilers)

Yeah, I kinda cringed and rolled my eyes the first time, having not expected it at all. I knew from the trailer there was at least one or TWOK callbacks, but wasn't expecting an almost word for word retread.

But, it's been done so why get caught up in it? I don't care. Film was really enjoyable though with some good call backs thrown in.

As for the death scene, it was ok. Not my favourite part of STID, but Spocks rage was justified due to in the past year, he had lost his planet, his mother, his mentor and captain, his new young captain was the final hit and he lost his shit and went Tiberian Bat-Shit crazy with a Vulcan uppercut.

I had an issue with so many direct rehashes and character useage from TWOK, ok about it now, but at the time, I was kinda like 'wtf?'

I did like Kirk restarting the Enterprises heart though. Great powerful scene, finally taking responsibilities for his ship and crew.

And the tribble ressurection was a little too obvious. We should've got Star Trek III: The search for kirks mojo.
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Old May 18 2013, 06:45 AM   #12
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Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene? (spoilers)

I frakking hated the yell the first time, as I said in some other thread the thought that went through my mind was "I want to slap JJ in the face."

Second time, I was okay about it. Third time, felt like I was appreciating it.
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Old May 18 2013, 08:45 AM   #13
mattman8907
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Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene? (spoilers)

that whole scene was heartbreaking, i think i shed a tear but i thought it was a very well homage, like someone said above, it doesn't matter if you known someone a year or ten years, if you guys have develop a someone mutual respect and friendship for one another and one of you died, the other probably would've been pissed.
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Old May 18 2013, 08:48 AM   #14
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Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene? (spoilers)

mattman8907 wrote: View Post
that whole scene was heartbreaking, i think i shed a tear but i thought it was a very well homage, like someone said above, it doesn't matter if you known someone a year or ten years, if you guys have develop a someone mutual respect and friendship for one another and one of you died, the other probably would've been pissed.
I said it!
Also, yes. I shed a number of tears during that scene. It was well done.
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Old May 18 2013, 01:33 PM   #15
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Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene? (spoilers)

I confess, I read the plot synopsis several weeks ago after the Aussie premiere. My stomach turned when I read of Spock making the iconic yell. Mainly because I have always thought that line was (as others pointed out) Kirk overacting for KNS. When Kirk went down to the cavern, he had is escape plan in place, he wasn't worried. So his yell was all part of the ruse. Spock, doing out of genuine rage? Utter gornsh*t.

Actually seeing STID completely changed my mind. The above summary from Orci sums it up pretty well. This was Spock's "I get it" moment. I thought it worked, and the whole scene had my wife in tears (and she's not a full-on Trek geek like myself). The fact that it was immediately followed by Spock's relentless apprehension of KNS seemed a very natural expression of Spock's anger.

I must say that I enjoyed seeing Spock wrestle with his emotions. We never really saw that with Spock Prime (unless there was some external, alien factor affecting him). My hat's off to Quinto on this!
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