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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old May 24 2013, 12:38 PM   #1
MikeS
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Valeyard - paradox?

Forgive me, I know next to nothing about Colin Baker's incarnation, I have only ever seen the Dalek episode that takes place in some catacombs - Rememberance of the...?

Anywho. This Valeyard. I've read a little about him on Wikipedia so I get what he is and what he does in Trial of a Timelord. But. If this is a future regeneration (or half - generation or whatever), how is he involved in the events of Trial? The Time-war was time-locked. Which meant that Ecclestone, Tenant and Smith couldn't travel to these places (Gallifrey in particular) or times and vice-versa. So subsequent Doctors should not be able to. Unless the lock gets unlocked at some point in the Doctor's future?...
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Old May 24 2013, 12:54 PM   #2
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Re: Valeyard - paradox?

Simple answer, there was no Time War at the time Trial of a Timelord was made.

And the new series has had pre and post Time War Timelords interacting, see Time Crash.
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Old May 24 2013, 12:54 PM   #3
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Re: Valeyard - paradox?

Because at that point in the Doctor's personal time-line, that hadn't happen so it was possible.

One of the best examples of this in Who (which normally ignores this question) is The Time-Travellers where the first Doctor, Ian, Susan and Barbara travel to 2006 and
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Old May 24 2013, 12:58 PM   #4
Kai "the spy"
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Re: Valeyard - paradox?

Besides, even if the Time War time-lock thing would already apply for ToaTL, Rassilon almost found a way around it for all of Gallifrey, and the Daleks also found a way, so I'd say the Valeyard, having enough time to work on it, could also break in.
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Old May 24 2013, 01:03 PM   #5
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Re: Valeyard - paradox?

Starkers wrote: View Post
Simple answer, there was no Time War at the time Trial of a Timelord was made.
JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Because at that point in the Doctor's personal time-line, that hadn't happen so it was possible.
But from the Valeyard's perspective it has.

Good point about Time Crash but wasn't that a Children In Need special? I seem to remember one Children In Need special where Richard E. Grant was an incarnation of the Doctor - I thought they were apocryphal?
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Old May 24 2013, 01:14 PM   #6
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Re: Valeyard - paradox?

The Valeyard is a neat idea,but for an ongoing franchise will never come to pass. There's too much money to make for the Doctor to turn evil or go bottoms up in a grave.
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Old May 24 2013, 01:15 PM   #7
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Re: Valeyard - paradox?

I don't think the Children in Need special is necessarily non-canon and it certainly shows that it's possible for the Doctor to interact with the version of himself before the Time War. Likewise, the finale shows the same thing.

That being said, I would have expected the Valeyard to be retconned based on the time war (which easily could have altered the Doctor's future history), but they appear to not want to go down that path.
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Old May 24 2013, 01:27 PM   #8
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Re: Valeyard - paradox?

The Time War was timelocked.. apart from when it wasn't, and Dalek Caan, Rassilon and every other fucker could get through it.

Just lazy RTD writing, try not to let it affect your perception of the otherwise interesting Time Lord mythos.
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Old May 24 2013, 01:59 PM   #9
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Re: Valeyard - paradox?

I'd agree that the Time lock itself is badly presented but as for 'otherwise interesting Time Lord mythos' - I've never seen it, it's generally just a load of crusty old white dudes who look like they are waiting for prostate exam.
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Old May 24 2013, 02:04 PM   #10
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Re: Valeyard - paradox?

MikeS wrote: View Post
Starkers wrote: View Post
Simple answer, there was no Time War at the time Trial of a Timelord was made.
JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Because at that point in the Doctor's personal time-line, that hadn't happen so it was possible.
But from the Valeyard's perspective it has.

Good point about Time Crash but wasn't that a Children In Need special? I seem to remember one Children In Need special where Richard E. Grant was an incarnation of the Doctor - I thought they were apocryphal?
No. Time Crash and Born Again (the 2005 Children in Need special showing Tennant's post regeneration scene) are both 100% canonical.

There's actually two seperate occasions where Richard E Grant played the Doctor. Curse of the Fatal Death and Scream of the Shalka. I'm going to assume you're referring to Curse of the Fatal Death, a 1999 Comic Relief special written by Steven Moffat which begins with Rowan Atkinson playing the Ninth Doctor, and then shows the Doctor running through his remaining regenerations, with one of the incarnations played by Richard E Grant. This is indeed apocryphal and was never meant to be anything more than a joke.

Scream of the Shalka, if you're interested was a flash animation production by BBC put online in 2003 in which Richard E Grant voices the Ninth Doctor. The plan was to do more animated stories, but this was abandoned in 2004 when RTD began working on bringing the show backl. Although both of these did kind of get referenced in one of BBC's Eighth Doctor novels.
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Old May 24 2013, 02:29 PM   #11
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Re: Valeyard - paradox?

Timelords can only go to present day Gallifrey and call it home.

They can go to past Gallifrey but the indigenous time lords from the past say don't cross your own timeline and fuck off.

So Gallifrey before the timewar is still there and the doctor can visit but... he wouldn't be all that welcome.

It doesn't matter when in time a Timelord is, they are always insync with present day Gallifrey.

Inside the time lock is the entire universe from one point in time to another point in time.

The reason that Gallifrey does not exist in the present is that it was physically destroyed, not because the it's locked away inside a segment of time. The time lock creates boudaries where from time travel cannot be used to reverse losses like the destructiion of gallifrey.

The Valeyard was a lawyer who was preosecuting the Doctor in the trial of the time Lord. Valeyard means Prosecuting lawyer in Gallifreyan. The Valeyard himself was a patchwork jigsaw puzzel (A dreamboard) the Matrix (and the Timelords) put together to counter the Doctor. The Valeyard coming into existence naturally is almost an impossibility. Trading life force is common place, but the valeyard could have taken regenerations from anyone, but he did have stop the Doctor from becoming not the Valeyard, as the winning of the trial would have allowed him the right to superimpose his made up/make beleive personality on top of the 6th incarnation and give his life some weight.
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Old May 24 2013, 03:57 PM   #12
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Re: Valeyard - paradox?

MikeS wrote: View Post
Starkers wrote: View Post
Simple answer, there was no Time War at the time Trial of a Timelord was made.
JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Because at that point in the Doctor's personal time-line, that hadn't happen so it was possible.
But from the Valeyard's perspective it has.

Good point about Time Crash but wasn't that a Children In Need special? I seem to remember one Children In Need special where Richard E. Grant was an incarnation of the Doctor - I thought they were apocryphal?
The Valeyard seems to be a projection (possibly even a non-physical one as he never seems to have actual physical contact with anyone, as he's standing solo in the prosecution box, though he seems to push a guard aside as he runs out into the Matrix - having somehow got from his box to the dock in the absence of any apparent route he could have used!) of a possible future incarnation at that point in the Doctor's timestream. Arguably, a Valeyard projected forward from McGann or McCoy's time might look different, act differently, etc etc. So anyway, he's not post-Time War, as at that point the Time War hasn't happened yet.
Plus, the Trial station is specifically stated to be out of time (and arguably the Valeyard's scheme to kill his past self could only work because of that), with the script making it clear it's located in the vortex.

Time travel - helping to sell Neurofen since... ah, well, that's complicated. Headache increasing..

On the Children in Need thing - the difference is that the Doctor Who production team of the time made Time Crash at el and specifically intended them to be canon (though things like the Doctor auctioning off his wardrobe last year-but-one aren't, like the Doctor presenting Cartoon Time back in Tom Baker's day - even though that has a direct lead-in to Terror of the Zygons!), whereas the team behind Fatal Death didn't.

ps: Guy G, interesting point about the Valeyard coming into existence naturally or not: in the original concept, the High Council had been disqualified from judging the Doctor due to bias. Instead, the Matrix was programmed to create projections of two future TIme Lords who'd be unbiased... but someone hacked the selection to get a prosecutor who'd be hostile to the Doctor... not realising that would produce his future self. So originally the Inquisitor also came from the 13th Doctor's era... Headache even worse now...
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Old May 24 2013, 05:11 PM   #13
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Re: Valeyard - paradox?

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
I'd agree that the Time lock itself is badly presented but as for 'otherwise interesting Time Lord mythos' - I've never seen it, it's generally just a load of crusty old white dudes who look like they are waiting for prostate exam.
True! And the Trainyard is the worst of the bunch.
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Old May 24 2013, 05:14 PM   #14
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Re: Valeyard - paradox?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Timelords can only go to present day Gallifrey and call it home.
What IS present day Gallifrey, chronologically speaking? Is it in our past, present, or future?
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Old May 24 2013, 06:16 PM   #15
diankra
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Re: Valeyard - paradox?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Timelords can only go to present day Gallifrey and call it home.
What IS present day Gallifrey, chronologically speaking? Is it in our past, present, or future?
Good question. Three Doctors and Arc of Infinity seem to suggest that it's contemporary (ie, late 20th Century) but Trial (on the same argument) would imply about two million years time. Frontios, picking up on an idea in the very first ideas for the series (that the TARDIS can't travel further into the future than the Gallifreyan present) implies it's 10 million years hence, but this has been contradicted by the new series (which is, of course, set after Gallifrey's destruction, so maybe it isn't a contradiction). And the writers guide for the McCoy era novels said it was in the ancient past, as the original Time Lords were future humans who escaped the end of the universe by setting up a base in the distant past, in the process influencing the entire universe (by the anthropomorphic principle) to make species who look like Time Lords so common.

Take your pick!
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