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Old May 29 2013, 06:34 PM   #61
Kaijima
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

IMO Dollhouse was accused of misogyny from the perspective of people who see, in a piece of fiction, literally anything bad happening to a female character as proof of the writer's dislike of women.

Regardless of how the execution of the show turned out, Dollhouse is a fairly challenging concept, and way more challenging that anything that usually makes it on network television. Realize that it is a story where essentially the villains are the protagonists and the viewer is fed information and opinions through the lens of these people trying to justify their actions. (Or at least repress the moral complications.)

By the end of the series I was left with the impression that the events of season 2 were probably compressed down from both a second and third season outline. I wonder what kind of show it would have been if season 1 hadn't been meddled with so badly and the rest of the arc was unwrapped across 3 full seasons. In the end that's the funny thing about Dollhouse to me. It's probably my least favorite Whedon TV series... but it's possibly the most interesting Whedon TV series.
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Old May 29 2013, 07:15 PM   #62
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

Kaijima wrote: View Post
IMO Dollhouse was accused of misogyny from the perspective of people who see, in a piece of fiction, literally anything bad happening to a female character as proof of the writer's dislike of women.
What, like every Christopher Nolan film, ever?
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Old May 29 2013, 07:21 PM   #63
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

Dollhouse season 1 arrived yesterday. I watched the first two episodes (Ghost and The Target) and I enjoyed both of them. I don't quite agree with Digific writer about Ghost. I'd put Firefly's pilot (and probably Angel's) before Ghost, but Dollhouse's pilot was decent. The Target was better, and it was a very good episode. The supporting characters are interesting (its cool to see Amy Acker, and Echo's handler is probably the only halfway decent person in the orginazation), and the show hasn't been (so far) as creepy as I thought it might be. I'm definately interested and want to keep watching.
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Old May 29 2013, 07:24 PM   #64
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Dollhouse season 1 arrived yesterday. I watched the first two episodes (Ghost and The Target) and I enjoyed both of them. I don't quite agree with Digific writer about Ghost. I'd put Firefly's pilot (and probably Angel's) before Ghost, but Dollhouse's pilot was decent. The Target was better, and it was a very good episode. The supporting characters are interesting (its cool to see Amy Acker, and Echo's handler is probably the only halfway decent person in the orginazation), and the show hasn't been (so far) as creepy as I thought it might be. I'm definately interested and want to keep watching.
I don't want to spoil it for you, so I will just tell you that one sentence in your review is 100% wrong, and when you're done watching the show you'll know exactly which sentence it was
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Old May 29 2013, 07:27 PM   #65
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

Well, since my opinion on whether the episodes were good are not can't really be "wrong", the only things that could be wrong are what I said about the side characters being interesting (although thats more a matter of opinion) or, more likely, that Echo's handler is a good guy. Honestly, it wouldn't be a huge surprise, its just that he's the only one in the Dollhouse organization who was willing to keep trying to rescue the little girl in Ghost, so that put him a bit ahead of the others to me.
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Old May 29 2013, 08:17 PM   #66
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

Hey, you ruin the surprise if you try to work it out logically!!
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Old May 29 2013, 08:21 PM   #67
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

Almost all the characters are despicable amoral people. Once you accept that, you will have a new graph to judge "Good people" by.
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Old May 29 2013, 08:42 PM   #68
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

Kaijima wrote: View Post
IMO Dollhouse was accused of misogyny from the perspective of people who see, in a piece of fiction, literally anything bad happening to a female character as proof of the writer's dislike of women.
Which is more than a little bit weird given that Joss' female characters are consistently among the best-written characters in all of his works and in the medium(s) in which they appear in general, and given that he's been very open about the influence that his feminist mother had on his work.
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Old May 29 2013, 09:07 PM   #69
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
Kaijima wrote: View Post
IMO Dollhouse was accused of misogyny from the perspective of people who see, in a piece of fiction, literally anything bad happening to a female character as proof of the writer's dislike of women.
Which is more than a little bit weird given that Joss' female characters are consistently among the best-written characters in all of his works and in the medium(s) in which they appear in general, and given that he's been very open about the influence that his feminist mother had on his work.
Well sure, but, the General Audience doesn't know things like that, or even that Whedon was responsible for Buffy, Angel and Firefly. Those kind of details are only known by us obsessives
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Old May 30 2013, 01:01 AM   #70
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

Kaijima wrote: View Post
IMO Dollhouse was accused of misogyny from the perspective of people who see, in a piece of fiction, literally anything bad happening to a female character as proof of the writer's dislike of women.
Some people have the weirdest ideas of what constitutes misogyny. I guess that they'd also characterize Victor Hugo and Charles Dickens as misanthropes who had an incredible hate for poor people?

And anyway, if they for some reason decided that the series is endorsing what the organization is doing to Echo and other dolls, I don't see what this has to do with women specifically, since there are both female and male "dolls", there's no indication that there isn't an equal number of "dolls" of both sexes, and both male and female dolls are used on sex assignments.

Here's a series of Youtube essays by someone who argues - very well - that Dollhouse is a feminist show, and "some of the most feminist stuff Joss has done". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIcCS6mDEec
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Old May 30 2013, 03:49 AM   #71
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

That's a pretty great video essay series, and I have to agree with the presenter's arguments against the claims made by the Youtube show Feminist Frequency; one of the many things that I think that show and its video blogger(s) missed about Dollhouse is that, as I mentioned earlier, the fact that, although the Dolls are hired out as sex partners, "it's not about the sex; it's about the connection", and think that that Dollhouse is Feminist video essayist covered that issue pretty succinctly even though she didn't put it quite in those terms.

I accidentally spoiled myself on the Boyd twist someone mentioned offhand earlier, and have to say that, although the Dollhouse is Feminist video essayist isn't sure that Joss actually initially planned on invoking said twist, I am, and would even put forth the argument that the existence of the twist doesn't in any way invalidate Boyd's characterization throughout most of the series, and also falls squarely within classic Joss Whedon storytelling form.

I'm about finished with The Left Hand, BTW, and should hopefully be back sometime tomorrow with reviews of both it and its predecessor episode, The Public Eye.
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Old May 30 2013, 06:53 AM   #72
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

The twist is kinda weird though, and puts the show in a different light upon a rewatch. Especially since like I said earlier, Boyd is our audience surrogate in the first few episodes.
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Old May 30 2013, 06:36 PM   #73
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

I just watched Stage Fright and Grey Hour. I got to say, I'm liking the show so far. A lot of people talked about the first part of season 1 being bad or not important, but I definately don't get that feel. There has been important stuff happening with characters and setting up Alpha, and every episode has felt like it contributed something to the show outside of being a standalone. Stage Fright is my least favorite episode so far (I don't like normal pop music, so parts of the episode were very painful) but even it had important parts and I didn't hate it, I could have just done without the horrible singing.

Grey Hour was great. I liked pretty much everything about it, and it was interesting to see Echo out in the world without an imprint. Also, with these two episodes, the reveal about Agent ballard's "source" was surprising, although it made sense. Of course Dollhouse would do something like that to lead him in the wrong direction. For a first part that was supposedly weak, I'm liking Dollhouse so far. I wonder what will happen when I get into what people call the stronger second half.
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Old May 30 2013, 07:31 PM   #74
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I just watched Stage Fright and Grey Hour. I got to say, I'm liking the show so far. A lot of people talked about the first part of season 1 being bad or not important, but I definately don't get that feel. There has been important stuff happening with characters and setting up Alpha, and every episode has felt like it contributed something to the show outside of being a standalone. Stage Fright is my least favorite episode so far (I don't like normal pop music, so parts of the episode were very painful) but even it had important parts and I didn't hate it, I could have just done without the horrible singing.

Grey Hour was great. I liked pretty much everything about it, and it was interesting to see Echo out in the world without an imprint. Also, with these two episodes, the reveal about Agent ballard's "source" was surprising, although it made sense. Of course Dollhouse would do something like that to lead him in the wrong direction. For a first part that was supposedly weak, I'm liking Dollhouse so far. I wonder what will happen when I get into what people call the stronger second half.
Yea, alot of people don't have the patience for World Building, I too enjoyed it from the start. I believe you, like me, also enjoyed B5 S1 during it's world building phase, which is another series many have issues with Season 1 World Building.

Regarding the supposed Mysogyny earlier on for Dollhouse, in the first several episodes, it really wasn't known that Victor was a doll or that there were/would be male dolls treated exactly like the female dolls, that didn't come clear until Victor was revealed. So, for the General audience it definitely had the appearance of mysogyny and did indeed turn off many viewers (3 people I specifically tried getting into the Series, plus a whole lots of folks posting on various SciFi BBSes I frequented mentioned it as their chief complaint). Knowing the Series more thoroughly, of course we who have seen it all know better
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Old May 30 2013, 09:07 PM   #75
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Re: Return to the Dollhouse

As I recall, Joss said the first 7 (6?) episodes were studio-notes-driven. After episode 7, it's all Joss.
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