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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 23 2013, 05:33 AM   #46
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
Obviously it's perfectly logical for a race that values logic above all else to have big pompous rituals and fights to the death.
It's called (situational) irony.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:40 AM   #47
Gov Kodos
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
Obviously it's perfectly logical for a race that values logic above all else to have big pompous rituals and fights to the death.
It's called (situational) irony.
Besides, why does logic preclude fights to the death?
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Old May 23 2013, 08:45 AM   #48
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

^ Quite!
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Old May 23 2013, 11:02 AM   #49
Lt. Uhura-Brown
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

They should have 3-D Chess to the death instead.
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Old May 23 2013, 05:49 PM   #50
Praetor Baldric
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
Obviously it's perfectly logical for a race that values logic above all else to have big pompous rituals and fights to the death.
It's called (situational) irony.
Besides, why does logic preclude fights to the death?
It needn't, but it does seem a trifle odd that T'Pau would leave that important bit of information out (especially after Spock tries to explain to her by saying that Kirk "knows not...").

I think the UFP could have brought up charges against T'Pau!
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Old May 23 2013, 06:27 PM   #51
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
Obviously it's perfectly logical for a race that values logic above all else to have big pompous rituals and fights to the death.
It is, if you're talking about a species that is very traditional.

The big ceremony and ancient rituals is (imho) the Vulcans way of controling pon farr to the limited ability that they can.

They can't stop it, so they channeled it.

If historically a Vulcan male wasn't linked to a female, then the Vulcan society would face repeated situations like what happen with Vorik. ST: Enterprise ('Mirror) said that Vulcan females go through their version as well. It's a biological and psychological part of who they are.

So the koon-ut (and the kal-i-fee) is in fact perfectly logical.

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Old May 23 2013, 09:19 PM   #52
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Yet it seems that the whole problem in "Amok Time" arose from the childhood bonding of Spock and T'Pring: had this not taken place, Spock would not have had anybody to fight over, and perhaps no logic-hindering lust in the first place. Vulcans could thus avoid all the hassle by discontinuing the practice of bonding.

If OTOH pon farr takes place whether there's bonding or not, it still remains unclear why bonding is practiced. It doesn't seem to alleviate Spock's mate-finding problems any: he has already been given a designated mate by telepathic and social means, but his biology is having none of it.

It thus seems to me that much of the ritual is practiced for reasons other than biological or socio-logistical necessity. In the past, the biological or logistical need for bonding young people may have been overwhelming: without the bonding of a boy from village A with a girl from the distant village B, the desert-dwelling hermits would limit themselves to inbreeding and soon die out. It would be an adaptation to the harsh conditions of Vulcan, as opposed to the lusher and less isolation-enforcing original homeworld that Sargon's people transplanted these folks from. With modern transportation, though, the bonding would have become meaningless. Doesn't mean it would have become illogical, though; there would be plenty of logic in maintaining traditions as a cohesive social force, even if the traditions themselves are senseless.

Whether the pon farr aspect of it all comes from the lusher origins or from the later desert adaptation (perhaps evolved by the Vulcans themselves, perhaps installed by Sargon's folks), it's hard to tell. Cyclically limited procreation would be nice for desert folks living in extreme scarcity, but nothing in Trek suggests that pon farr limits procreation. It merely promotes it, by encouraging and even enforcing the forming of couples - but what happens thereafter is neither promoted nor inhibited as far as we know.

ST: Enterprise ('Mirror) said that Vulcan females go through their version as well.
Since bisexuality, apparently a minority trait in the "real" universe just as in the real real one, is extremely prominent in the Mirror universe, we might just as well decide that female pon farr is another perversion that is rarely heard of in the "real" universe.

But we also have ENT "Bounty", where T'Pol from the "real" universe associates her odd symptoms with pon farr, without introducing the idea that females would be unlikely victims.

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Old May 24 2013, 01:02 PM   #53
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
Obviously it's perfectly logical for a race that values logic above all else to have big pompous rituals and fights to the death.
The history and tradition of these rituals most likely emanates from a time pre-Surak.
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Old May 24 2013, 01:03 PM   #54
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Big Daddy wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

It's called (situational) irony.
Besides, why does logic preclude fights to the death?
It needn't, but it does seem a trifle odd that T'Pau would leave that important bit of information out (especially after Spock tries to explain to her by saying that Kirk "knows not...").

I think the UFP could have brought up charges against T'Pau!
No.
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Old May 24 2013, 04:47 PM   #55
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

The fact that Sturgeon showed the Vulcans to be virtually the opposite of what we expected is one of the most wonderful things about the episode.

As someone smart once said, "You want to find out what people are doing a lot of? Look at what they make laws against."
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Old May 24 2013, 07:46 PM   #56
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
The fact that Sturgeon showed the Vulcans to be virtually the opposite of what we expected is one of the most wonderful things about the episode.

As someone smart once said, "You want to find out what people are doing a lot of? Look at what they make laws against."
The episode actually addresses this, when Spock asks Kirk if he ever wondered how Vulcans pick their mates. Kirk shrugs and says something about how he always assumed it was done very logically.

"It is not," Spock corrects him--which was indeed nicely unexpected.

(This is the part where I reminisce once again about appearing on my very first convention panel opposite Theodore Sturgeon of all people. I was more than a little intimidated, especially considering that I was just a baby writer with only a few magazine credits to my name, but he couldn't have been nicer or more hospitable.)
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Old May 24 2013, 08:12 PM   #57
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
It was far from clear at the time that "Amok Time" was written that Vulcans were "co-founders" of anything. We had never seen a Vulcan other than Spock and had no clear idea whether anyone else on the Enterprise had, either.

I know that's hard to imagine forty-odd years later, but Vulcans were rather mysterious and exotic (to use a somewhat politically incorrect but useful word) and little if anything had been said about any alien members of the Federation other than Vulcans. Sturgeon was an imaginative science fiction writer and he approached the Vulcans as if they were an alien species, rather than simply a national or ethnic grouping (the latter being the way Trek has chosen for the most part to treat alien life since) who lived on an isolated planet. He thought in sf terms, IOW, rather than TV.
Exactly. If you go back and watch the early episodes, Kirk and the crew tend to treat Spock as a very mysterious and exotic curiosity. One gets the impression that Spock is the first Vulcan most of them have ever met. "Tell me about the moons on your planet, Mister Spock." Etcetera.

And the idea that the Vulcans are secretive and reclusive never really went away. As late as The Search for Spock, Kirk and the higher-ups at Starfleet are apparently unaware of that whole "katra" business . . . and seem somewhat skeptical about "Vulcan mysticism" in general.

Heck, in "Journey to Babel," McCoy doesn't know what a sehlat is either . . .

Exactly. Early Trek is a different animal than what it evolved into. If Trek was "Wagon Train To The Stars", then Spock was the lone Native American riding along with the Union troops. They don't know much about his tribe, he doesn't speak much about them and they don't care for outsiders anyway.
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Old May 24 2013, 09:02 PM   #58
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Pretty much, yeah. I believe Herb Solow wrote that he pitched the character that way to the networks. Or was that Oscar Katz?

It's funny, when I first started to get some sense of who Spock was on the show my thought was "Oh, he's like Mingo on Daniel Boone."
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Old May 25 2013, 04:10 AM   #59
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Amok Time is brilliant. Back before all Trek aliens were basically humanity with shit glued on their faces.
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Old May 25 2013, 04:54 AM   #60
Lt. Uhura-Brown
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Amok Time is brilliant. Back before all Trek aliens were basically humanity with shit glued on their faces.
You must have missed the first season, then.
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