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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 14 2013, 01:51 PM   #31
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline [alt-reality]

Opus wrote: View Post
Rothschild wrote: View Post
I just saw Heat.
Gaffigan!
It is only because of the power of Google that I understand that.
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Old May 15 2013, 11:58 PM   #32
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
I'm beginning to think this is completely different Universe,even before the Narada showed up. There are too many inconsistencies in technology for this just to be a different branch of the timeline from when the Narada shows up.
Agreed, the new trek universe has nothing to do with the "prime universe" and even if Nero and Spock hadn't shown up, the events in this universe would have still unfolded differently. IMO anyway, Strange enough, Nero showing up actually lead to events in this universe (Kirk and co. being aboard the enterprise) being more like the Prime Universe then they would have been.
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Old May 16 2013, 02:00 AM   #33
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
^
Warp drive is only one example. IMO, there are many other things that are too different for it simply to be written off as due to a brief never seen since encounter with the Narada.
If we declared "alternate reality" every time there was an inconsistency in Star Trek we'd have more Universes than Imelda Marcos had shoes.
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Old May 16 2013, 02:03 AM   #34
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
^
Warp drive is only one example. IMO, there are many other things that are too different for it simply to be written off as due to a brief never seen since encounter with the Narada.
If we declared "alternate reality" every time there was an inconsistency in Star Trek we'd have more Universes than Imelda Marcos had shoes.
Unfortunately, the alternate timeline explanation always gets used to explain every error, and has since well before the Abramsverse came on the scene.
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Old May 16 2013, 02:13 AM   #35
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
^
Warp drive is only one example. IMO, there are many other things that are too different for it simply to be written off as due to a brief never seen since encounter with the Narada.
If we declared "alternate reality" every time there was an inconsistency in Star Trek we'd have more Universes than Imelda Marcos had shoes.
Unfortunately, the alternate timeline explanation always gets used to explain every error, and has since well before the Abramsverse came on the scene.
So there are alternate timelines with a James R. Kirk, one where Data graduated in the class of '78 and one where Saavik looks like Robin Curtis?
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Old May 16 2013, 02:16 AM   #36
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
^
Warp drive is only one example. IMO, there are many other things that are too different for it simply to be written off as due to a brief never seen since encounter with the Narada.
If we declared "alternate reality" every time there was an inconsistency in Star Trek we'd have more Universes than Imelda Marcos had shoes.
Unfortunately, the alternate timeline explanation always gets used to explain every error, and has since well before the Abramsverse came on the scene.
Thank you parallels
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Old May 16 2013, 02:29 AM   #37
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

Tribble puncher wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
I'm beginning to think this is completely different Universe,even before the Narada showed up. There are too many inconsistencies in technology for this just to be a different branch of the timeline from when the Narada shows up.
Agreed, the new trek universe has nothing to do with the "prime universe" and even if Nero and Spock hadn't shown up, the events in this universe would have still unfolded differently. IMO anyway, Strange enough, Nero showing up actually lead to events in this universe (Kirk and co. being aboard the enterprise) being more like the Prime Universe then they would have been.

I disagree. Primarily because JJ Abrams has in numerous interviews stated this was the original timeline up until the day of Kirk's birth. You may not like the delivery or some inconsistencies that show up but to refute it would be telling the author you know the story he wrote regardless of what he says the story was.

Abrams on the alternate time line:

ABRAMS: "Here’s the thing… I think the key to that was, first of all, it was one of those things that not everyone even cares about or understands the timeline of it all. The notion that when this one character, Nero, arrives in his ship, that basically the timeline is altered at that moment, so everything forward is essentially an alternative timeline. That is not to say that everything that happened in The Original Series doesn’t exist. I think, as a fan of movies and shows, if someone told me the beloved thing for me was gone, I would be upset. But we didn’t do that. We’re not saying that what happened in that original series wasn’t good, true, valid, righteous and real. Let people embrace that. We’re not rejecting that. That, to me, would have been the big mistake. We’re simply saying that, "At this moment, the very first scene in the first movie, everything that people knew of Star Trek splits off into now another timeline.
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Old May 16 2013, 02:39 AM   #38
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
If we declared "alternate reality" every time there was an inconsistency in Star Trek we'd have more Universes than Imelda Marcos had shoes.
Unfortunately, the alternate timeline explanation always gets used to explain every error, and has since well before the Abramsverse came on the scene.
So there are alternate timelines with a James R. Kirk, one where Data graduated in the class of '78 and one where Saavik looks like Robin Curtis?
Actually, the novel Q-Squared really did present Where No Man Has Gone Before as an alternate timeline where the Enterprise was commanded by James R. Kirk. I'm serious.
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Old May 16 2013, 02:58 AM   #39
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline [alt-reality]

Peter David. I'll pass.
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Old May 16 2013, 06:12 AM   #40
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline [alt-reality]

The department of Temporal Investigations probably didn't exist prior to Kirk's five-year mission, so probably don't concern themselves with branches in the timeline created before they were, since those branches already 'happened' in their own history, so interfering with them would change the past of the timeline they were in, which would itself be a violation. Besides, it wasn't implied the DTI had the power to FIX violations, they just monitored them.
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Old May 16 2013, 08:22 AM   #41
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
I'm beginning to think this is completely different Universe,even before the Narada showed up. There are too many inconsistencies in technology for this just to be a different branch of the timeline from when the Narada shows up.
I think Nero and Spock travelled across not only time but dimensions, too. They went to a parallel universe 2233, one of the countless universes seen in TNG's Parallels. That fixes all continuity problems in one fell swoop!

Different universe, different rules. Khan is white, Chekov was born earlier, Robert April apparently didn't exist, etc. It's a totally different universe.
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Old May 16 2013, 10:32 AM   #42
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

Tribble puncher wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
I'm beginning to think this is completely different Universe,even before the Narada showed up. There are too many inconsistencies in technology for this just to be a different branch of the timeline from when the Narada shows up.
Agreed, the new trek universe has nothing to do with the "prime universe" and even if Nero and Spock hadn't shown up, the events in this universe would have still unfolded differently. IMO anyway, Strange enough, Nero showing up actually lead to events in this universe (Kirk and co. being aboard the enterprise) being more like the Prime Universe then they would have been.
Wrong.

You are all thinking too...liner...ly...ish...

As I tried to explain in another thread, this timeline DOES owe it's entire existence to Nero's time travel...*and* it's a different timeline, both forward and backwards...mostly.

You see, the Trek-multiverse is a reality where time travel is possible, and people from the relative future travel to the relative past, and influence it - therefore causality runs both ways - the past effects the future, *AND* the future effects the past...which also effects the future again. It's all (sorta) one big (mostly) closed-causal loop.

When Nero created a relative new present and future (well, for him it was new past, but ignore that for now)...he also would have had to effect, and even reshape, the past...(somewhat at least.)

And therefore, the timeline before the Kelvin incident, in this new reality, isn't (couldn't be, but more on that in a sec) the exact same past, the exact same timeline, as the past in the Prime TOS timeline (it is just one that is very, very similar to it - with it's own Archer and even it's own...well, spoilers for STID!)

Otherwise, the new timeline would have, in it's past, visitors from a future that wasn't it's own!!!

And nuKirk and company, could travel back in their past, and meet up with the prime timeline's version of Kirk...or even Picard or Sisko...and just hop a ride with them back to the Prime timeline!

And that would be impossible!

Sure, the new timeline has it's version of Archer...and it probably even has it's own version of Picard (or *somebody*) traveling back and helping it's version of Zephram Cochrane...but it's won't be the Prime timeline's version of Picard.

And I would even go so far as to say the each timeline...resonates...with the other - or maybe it's the timeline trying to "repair" itself...but there's a version of..fate...destiny...well, predestination in the new timeline - hence we get a Kirk and Spock and McCoy and Co. all together on a ship called Enterprise. So likely, there's a future version of Picard and Sisko and Janeway...just...their lives are...different. And there's *clearly* a past version of Archer and the NX-01...and those adventures are probably pretty similar to what we saw on TV...but not exactly the same. (And I dunno, changes in the new timeline past probably wouldn't be quite so extreme as the changes in it's future...for some reason.)

This kinda...synchronicity...isn't anything unprecedented in the Trek-verse - just look at the TOS timeline vs. the Mirror universe in TOS...and ENT and DS9! Some...something...keep both timelines very similar - with the same people and same ships and even some of the same historical events...but not *exactly* the same. (And we learned in ENT and DS9 that the past of the Mirror universe is very similar to the past of the TOS Prime timeline...but it's future..less similar...)

But there *were* changes - and this would explain the reason the Kelvin probably looks different from what the Kelvin in the Prime timeline should look like...and yet, there's most likely a USS Kelvin in *both* timelines.

Here's one way to picture it...

Instead of the timeline's looking like this shape: H <-- where we have two parallel and mostly untouching - and totally unbranching timelines running parallel, with the cross-bar of the "H" representing Nero and Spock's wormhole crossing over...

And instead of the timeline looking like this: Y <-- with only one past, that branches off into two separate futures (a shape that you can ONLY have in a universe where causality only runs past to future....

It looks like this: X ...or maybe this: >< <-- with the creation point - the point where the two (time)lines bend to touch being Nero's journey to the past. (But note, that each timeline is *almost* a mirror image of the other!)

Make sense now? Lol.
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Old May 16 2013, 09:57 PM   #43
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

bryce wrote: View Post
Tribble puncher wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
I'm beginning to think this is completely different Universe,even before the Narada showed up. There are too many inconsistencies in technology for this just to be a different branch of the timeline from when the Narada shows up.
Agreed, the new trek universe has nothing to do with the "prime universe" and even if Nero and Spock hadn't shown up, the events in this universe would have still unfolded differently. IMO anyway, Strange enough, Nero showing up actually lead to events in this universe (Kirk and co. being aboard the enterprise) being more like the Prime Universe then they would have been.
Wrong.

You are all thinking too...liner...ly...ish...

As I tried to explain in another thread, this timeline DOES owe it's entire existence to Nero's time travel...*and* it's a different timeline, both forward and backwards...mostly.

You see, the Trek-multiverse is a reality where time travel is possible, and people from the relative future travel to the relative past, and influence it - therefore causality runs both ways - the past effects the future, *AND* the future effects the past...which also effects the future again. It's all (sorta) one big (mostly) closed-causal loop.

When Nero created a relative new present and future (well, for him it was new past, but ignore that for now)...he also would have had to effect, and even reshape, the past...(somewhat at least.)

And therefore, the timeline before the Kelvin incident, in this new reality, isn't (couldn't be, but more on that in a sec) the exact same past, the exact same timeline, as the past in the Prime TOS timeline (it is just one that is very, very similar to it - with it's own Archer and even it's own...well, spoilers for STID!)

Otherwise, the new timeline would have, in it's past, visitors from a future that wasn't it's own!!!

And nuKirk and company, could travel back in their past, and meet up with the prime timeline's version of Kirk...or even Picard or Sisko...and just hop a ride with them back to the Prime timeline!

And that would be impossible!

Sure, the new timeline has it's version of Archer...and it probably even has it's own version of Picard (or *somebody*) traveling back and helping it's version of Zephram Cochrane...but it's won't be the Prime timeline's version of Picard.

And I would even go so far as to say the each timeline...resonates...with the other - or maybe it's the timeline trying to "repair" itself...but there's a version of..fate...destiny...well, predestination in the new timeline - hence we get a Kirk and Spock and McCoy and Co. all together on a ship called Enterprise. So likely, there's a future version of Picard and Sisko and Janeway...just...their lives are...different. And there's *clearly* a past version of Archer and the NX-01...and those adventures are probably pretty similar to what we saw on TV...but not exactly the same. (And I dunno, changes in the new timeline past probably wouldn't be quite so extreme as the changes in it's future...for some reason.)

This kinda...synchronicity...isn't anything unprecedented in the Trek-verse - just look at the TOS timeline vs. the Mirror universe in TOS...and ENT and DS9! Some...something...keep both timelines very similar - with the same people and same ships and even some of the same historical events...but not *exactly* the same. (And we learned in ENT and DS9 that the past of the Mirror universe is very similar to the past of the TOS Prime timeline...but it's future..less similar...)

But there *were* changes - and this would explain the reason the Kelvin probably looks different from what the Kelvin in the Prime timeline should look like...and yet, there's most likely a USS Kelvin in *both* timelines.

Here's one way to picture it...

Instead of the timeline's looking like this shape: H <-- where we have two parallel and mostly untouching - and totally unbranching timelines running parallel, with the cross-bar of the "H" representing Nero and Spock's wormhole crossing over...

And instead of the timeline looking like this: Y <-- with only one past, that branches off into two separate futures (a shape that you can ONLY have in a universe where causality only runs past to future....

It looks like this: X ...or maybe this: >< <-- with the creation point - the point where the two (time)lines bend to touch being Nero's journey to the past. (But note, that each timeline is *almost* a mirror image of the other!)

Make sense now? Lol.

I like it and it makes sense in time anomaly, space/time continuum sort of way.
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Old May 17 2013, 01:16 AM   #44
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline [alt-reality]

If this is not a spoiler-marked thread, it would be nice if people would use spoiler tags.
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Old May 17 2013, 03:57 AM   #45
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Re: so ST 11 is another timeline

I am not Spock wrote: View Post
ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
I'm beginning to think this is completely different Universe,even before the Narada showed up. There are too many inconsistencies in technology for this just to be a different branch of the timeline from when the Narada shows up.
I think Nero and Spock travelled across not only time but dimensions, too. They went to a parallel universe 2233, one of the countless universes seen in TNG's Parallels. That fixes all continuity problems in one fell swoop!

Different universe, different rules. Khan is white, Chekov was born earlier, Robert April apparently didn't exist, etc. It's a totally different universe.
April exists and was the captain of a ship called Enterprise. They show him in Countdown Into Darkness, which appears to be canon since Kirk mentions it as the Mudd incident.
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