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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old May 10 2013, 10:59 PM   #31
Maxwell Everett
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

Here's what Bonchune's image looks like with a little grain and Gaussian blur added (and dropping the input brightness level just a bit afterward) to better simulate a photographic look. Click to enlarge:

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Old May 10 2013, 11:06 PM   #32
Beta-Z
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

Perfect.
Well... guess that deal is done then, huh?
Oh, how i'd love to be a little fly now in the offices of those decision heads over at CBS.
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Old May 10 2013, 11:13 PM   #33
JarodRussell
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

Hm, not sure, it's still quite CG looking, unlike the original DVD version.
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Old May 10 2013, 11:25 PM   #34
bullethead
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Hm, not sure, it's still quite CG looking, unlike the original DVD version.
It might be due to the texturing on the ship. The escape pods look like decals to me and there's some stuff on the pod that looks plasticky.
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Old May 11 2013, 12:20 AM   #35
Maxwell Everett
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Hm, not sure, it's still quite CG looking, unlike the original DVD version.
I dunno, the original DVD version just looks like CG rendered at D1 res to me. There's nothing particularly magical about it, other than the fact that it has an incredibly low amount of visible detail (as you would expect). It certainly doesn't look any more like a physical model than the new 1080p render.

Here's what the miniature looked like in Generations:

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Old May 11 2013, 01:26 AM   #36
Savage Dragon
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
Aatrek wrote: View Post
The "sweetening" he refers to is the stuff that CBS Digital has been doing to make the TNG shots look more realistic - interactive lighting passes, planets with atmospheric glow, better depth of field - NOT changes to the content, like with TOS.
I know. And honestly, even that "sweetening" was too much for me and kept me from buying the TNG-R sets.
So let me get this straight. You didn't buy TNG remastered becasue it looks too good?
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Old May 11 2013, 01:53 AM   #37
Hober Mallow
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
M wrote: View Post
How to remaster computer generated imagery, though? Re-rendering is re-mastering it in this case. There's no two ways about it, upscaling a CGI shot is certainly not remastering it. Making a new render of the original file is the right thing to do.
Re-rendering the original elements is ok, but re-creating them ruins it for me. Even if it's as subtle as in TNG-R. And don't get me started on TOS-R!
Um... huh?

I would have guessed that you'd have liked the remastered original series since the complete original film masters were remastered in HD, original FX and all. The added FX had nothing whatsoever to do with the remaster and are simply an added bonus which you are free to watch or not.

EDIT: From an earlier post of yours:
[quote]
Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
Aatrek wrote: View Post
Then yes, the DVDs are what you want if you don't want the show to be remastered.
Remastered, yes! Recreated, no! When will people finally get the difference!
When indeed? Not a frame of TOS was recreated when remastered in HD. You can think of the enhanced FX as simply a bonus feature of the TOS BD.
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Old May 11 2013, 02:23 AM   #38
BillJ
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

Good news.

It should drive down the cost to remaster a bit and make the decision by CBS easier.
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Old May 11 2013, 02:27 AM   #39
Dream
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

So which series would sell better, DS9 or VOY? Which will CBS release first?
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Old May 11 2013, 02:32 AM   #40
Aatrek
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

Regardless of which may sell better, DS9 would be next in line - it's mostly model work (like TNG) for the first several seasons.
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Old May 11 2013, 02:43 AM   #41
Beta-Z
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

Dream wrote: View Post
So which series would sell better, DS9 or VOY? Which will CBS release first?
As long as they consider to release both, i don't really care.
My favourite TREK will always be TNG. Never been sure about 2nd place, DS9 has such marvellous plots and developments over its years, but VOY is a show based on a ship and discovers unexplored ground, none can win here for me, as I love them both to pieces!
I want them all sooo much, no question about that!
Don't give a damn about ENT though... don't know why, but that show never got me. Sorry so much, but I'm just beeing honest here. ENT is the only one of the bunch I won't buy on BD, as much as I tried to care for it's chars as much as I LOVE Picard, Sisko and Janeway, i just don't feel this for Bakula and Co.

Last edited by Beta-Z; May 11 2013 at 02:55 AM.
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Old May 11 2013, 03:11 AM   #42
Lee Enfield
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

bullethead wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Hm, not sure, it's still quite CG looking, unlike the original DVD version.
It might be due to the texturing on the ship. The escape pods look like decals to me and there's some stuff on the pod that looks plasticky.
It still looks cartoonish because of 2 areas:

- Lighting
- Materials

The Production Rendering for the SD-Shot, back in those days, was prabably lighted in a traditional manner by the Lighting Artist(s). Thereby, an object gets sorrounded by at least 3 lights. The main light is the strongest. One weaker light fills the viewablle surfaces of the object with light and the third makes a contour, in most cases.

Well, back in those days, when there were no Raytracing Algos for Global Illumination, Lighting Artists emulated scattered and reflected light by covering the object in something that is called a "light dome".

The SD-Shots, most likely, have a couple of lights, to care for a more subtle and realistic light approach. But this traditional technique would'nt hold up with HD.

The Original HD-Shot, as it seems, just makes use of ONE light source (counting out the light sources attached to the ship, because they dont add much to the overall secondary light bleeding). This is (the) one reason.


The other reason is the usage of materials. The most important factor are the specular properties. They often get defined through two specular maps (actually, one is for glossiness). Standard Rendering/Shading-Models lack the ability to compute Raytraced Reflections(/Specular/Glossiness), therefore they look cartoonish. This is especialy apparent in HD-Shots.
Though, this is another reason the HD-Shot looks a little weak, the SD-Shot-Resolution is too low to identify those properties in this particular footage.

And here is the reason the HD-Shot doesn't have those features: Because it DOES take time and work to re-do the materials and the lighting to accomplish a current gen quality(HD)! And I somehow doubt that he can "just load his scenes with modern software", without having problems. - But then, I'm not familiar with Lightwave.

Last edited by Lee Enfield; May 11 2013 at 04:42 AM.
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Old May 11 2013, 05:00 AM   #43
davejames
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

Beta-Z wrote: View Post
Perfect.
Well... guess that deal is done then, huh?
Oh, how i'd love to be a little fly now in the offices of those decision heads over at CBS.
Well we probably shouldn't get TOO far ahead of ourselves. Note that the article states there were two teams that worked on the CG effects (Foundation Imaging and Digital Muse), and it's only Foundation that this guy has all the effects files for.

And from what he says, it was the other group that did most of the effects work, so until we hear from one of those guys I'd say this is all still very much up in the air.

Although I'd be really surprised if someone didn't have those files. It's hard to believe a company would do all that immense amount of work-- for such a huge, iconic franchise-- and not keep the computer files stored away somewhere.
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Old May 11 2013, 07:35 AM   #44
Oso Blanco
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

M wrote: View Post
In the case of the CGI files for DS9, however, those are the original elements. Rendering them anew is analogous to putting the original 35 mm film elements in a projector and scan them for a more detailed picture. That's exactly how they should remaster those effects elements.
As far as I understand, they have only the effect elements from one of the two fx houses, and only for the later seasons. What about the other episodes?

M wrote: View Post
EDIT: Schon lustig, wie das Board immer mehr von deutschen Usern bevölkert wird. Das hat man nun davon, dass es kein ordentliches, deutsches Star Trek-Forum gibt, richtig? Vielleicht sollten wir uns bei Gelegenheit mal in einem Thread sammeln.
In der Tat ... aber da ich Star Trek immer im Original sehe, war ich auch noch nie in einem deutschen Star Trek Forum. Mir fehlen immer die passenden deutschen Wörter ... wie offensichtlich auch den Dialogschreibern der Synchros ...

Aber ein deutsches Sub-Forum hier wäre eine witzige Sache!
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Old May 11 2013, 08:28 AM   #45
Maxwell Everett
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Re: TrekCore: "Important News about DS9 in HD Coming May 10"

davejames wrote: View Post
Beta-Z wrote: View Post
Perfect.
Well... guess that deal is done then, huh?
Oh, how i'd love to be a little fly now in the offices of those decision heads over at CBS.
Well we probably shouldn't get TOO far ahead of ourselves. Note that the article states there were two teams that worked on the CG effects (Foundation Imaging and Digital Muse), and it's only Foundation that this guy has all the effects files for.

And from what he says, it was the other group that did most of the effects work, so until we hear from one of those guys I'd say this is all still very much up in the air.

Although I'd be really surprised if someone didn't have those files. It's hard to believe a company would do all that immense amount of work-- for such a huge, iconic franchise-- and not keep the computer files stored away somewhere.
Well, Eden FX is still around. Eden FX is what became of both Foundation Imaging and Digital Muse. Rob Bonchune worked for both Foundation and Eden FX, and Eden FX have all of Digital Muse's Star Trek assets. Here's the pertinent quote from Memory Alpha:

Digital Muse closed down in February 2000 after a decision to sell a portion of the company to an internet company in order to raise capital backfired, resulting in a hostile take-over of the company. Gross opted to start over, leaving the company to found Eden FX with Digital Magic's Mark Miller. Digital Muse shut down the following week. [1] [2] The company was working on the seventh season of Star Trek: Voyager at the time; fortunately, however, Paramount Pictures owned the computer models which Digital Muse created, so Gross and his staff were able to simply copy the models onto their server at Eden FX, allowing the studio to continue their work with the franchise. [3] Many of the employees at Digital Muse also quit Muse to join Eden FX.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Foundation_Imaging
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Digital_Muse
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Eden_FX
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