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Old May 21 2013, 12:26 PM   #76
CorporalCaptain
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

A world in which everyone is free to pursue their dreams, which is the Earth we were shown in DS9, isn't a daycare.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:11 PM   #77
Crazyewok
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
So many people who, contrary to apparent evidences in the series, really want the Federation to be a capitalistic, opportunistic, corporate plutocracy. I always wonder why.
No I see a BALANCED system. You get what you put in but no one is ever going to go without. And people who do vital work will get what they deserve unlike now where the most vital peope in socity get treated like dirt.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:16 PM   #78
Crazyewok
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
A world in which everyone is free to pursue their dreams, which is the Earth we were shown in DS9, isn't a daycare.
Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
But in the world of Star Trek, most luxuries exist in a state of abundance; my having the newest iPod does not mean that there's one less iPod in the world for someone else. So there's nothing unethical about a free luxury, as you're not taking away from anyone else to have it.
You're disabling the incentive anyone has to do the jobs that aren't fun. Human nature doesn't really change over time: a great many people will always take the path of least resistance (meaning the most freebies).

Those who continue working hard will feel like fools for doing so. This includes young people doing school work.

A "post-scarcity" economy, which thankfully is a wild fantasy that humanity will never have to worry, would turn too many people into useless children, with no skills and no work ethic. When the magic machines stop functioning, say after a devastating enemy attack on the Earth, this helpless version humanity would be done for.
I'm guessing you either really hate your job, or you have an extremely low view of humanity.

Sure, there will be people who want to sit on the couch and do nothing all day, let them. But most people need to be occupied, need to feel useful - THAT'S human nature. People like to learn, people like to know how the things around them work. We already live in a world where you can pick up the phone and have food delivered with practically no effort and yet people still garden, fish, and hunt.

If humans were as lazy as you seem to think we are, we'd have gone extinct millennia ago.
Not everyone is going to be able to be a captain of a starship or be a doctor ect

Someone has got to do the REAL crapy jobs. I dont think anyone is going to enjoy scrubbing the poo tubes on a Fed starbase for example. But these jobs need doing so they will have to be some sort of reward system to act as incentives.

If I was born in the 23rd century but was unlucky enough to be born without the abilitys to become a starfleet officer or scientist and I had the choice, live in la la land and do nothing and have every luxury I want provided or work in waste extraction or become a red shirt I think I will pick the lazy low risk do nothing option!
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Old May 21 2013, 03:17 PM   #79
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Some people would rather have an oppressive hierarchy that serves all the whims of an idle, powerful 1% and redistributes all the wealth to that elite while punishing the working class; than in a future where resources are abundant, little if any such hierarchy is needed, and wealth is not redistributed from the working and middle classes to the 1%. These people believe in power, not freedom.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:19 PM   #80
sonak
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
Have you ever been on a long unemployment period or sick leave? It gets OLD.

I really don't think most people need encouragement to work. Most people need SOMETHING to do.

If you really imagine a world where all of your needs are taken care of, you're still going to want something to do; you're still going to want something to give you a sense of purpose. I can imagine people willingly working for free without any kind of coercion.

In the 24th century, 15 work hours a week from 25% of the population is probably more than enough work to keep the Federation running. People are probably competing for non-paying jobs.

exactly. I don't know where this "no one will work once their needs are taken care of!" attitude comes from. It's NOT based on evidence or "human nature." If it were true, once someone saved up a few million dollars, they'd retire and sit on the couch. Yet we have rich athletes, entertainers, and businessmen who all continue to work long after they don't have to. And we have people who (gasp!) volunteer their time at various organizations or sites when there's no personal gain or money involved.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:23 PM   #81
Crazyewok
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

sonak wrote: View Post
Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
Have you ever been on a long unemployment period or sick leave? It gets OLD.

I really don't think most people need encouragement to work. Most people need SOMETHING to do.

If you really imagine a world where all of your needs are taken care of, you're still going to want something to do; you're still going to want something to give you a sense of purpose. I can imagine people willingly working for free without any kind of coercion.

In the 24th century, 15 work hours a week from 25% of the population is probably more than enough work to keep the Federation running. People are probably competing for non-paying jobs.

exactly. I don't know where this "no one will work once their needs are taken care of!" attitude comes from. It's NOT based on evidence or "human nature." If it were true, once someone saved up a few million dollars, they'd retire and sit on the couch. Yet we have rich athletes, entertainers, and businessmen who all continue to work long after they don't have to. And we have people who (gasp!) volunteer their time at various organizations or sites when there's no personal gain or money involved.
I will repeat what I said 2 posts ago

Not everyone is going to be able to be a captain of a starship or be a doctor ect

Someone has got to do the REAL crapy jobs. I dont think anyone is going to enjoy scrubbing the poo tubes on a Fed starbase for example. But these jobs need doing so they will have to be some sort of reward system to act as incentives.

If I was born in the 23rd century but was unlucky enough to be born without the abilitys to become a starfleet officer or scientist and I had the choice, live in la la land and do nothing and have every luxury I want provided or work in waste extraction or become a red shirt I think I will pick the lazy low risk do nothing option!




At the end of the day people seem to think you have to have either 100% uncontrolled capitlism or 100% la la land unrealistic do what you want socity with zero indvidual responsibility.


As I said I see a very fair balance!!!
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Old May 21 2013, 03:25 PM   #82
Crazyewok
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

O and I remember Sisko telling nog that when in the acadermy he used up all his engery allowance on transporting back home.

So there is obvisoluy some method of energy accounting.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:33 PM   #83
Kelthaz
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
Someone has got to do the REAL crapy jobs. I dont think anyone is going to enjoy scrubbing the poo tubes on a Fed starbase for example. But these jobs need doing so they will have to be some sort of reward system to act as incentives.
Menial jobs will be filled by robots or holograms in the future. There will be no need for a toilet scrubber in the 24th century. We're already seeing this happen in real life as factories are becoming more automated.
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Old May 21 2013, 03:35 PM   #84
Crazyewok
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Crazyewok wrote: View Post
Someone has got to do the REAL crapy jobs. I dont think anyone is going to enjoy scrubbing the poo tubes on a Fed starbase for example. But these jobs need doing so they will have to be some sort of reward system to act as incentives.
Menial jobs will be filled by robots or holograms in the future. There will be no need for a toilet scrubber in the 24th century. We're already seeing this happen in real life as factories are becoming more automated.
Holograms only game in after about 2371.
Before you could see lots of background people doing pretty lame jobs. Even Rom worked in waste extraction at one point.

Plus someone has to oversee the robots and replicators ect
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Old May 21 2013, 04:07 PM   #85
iguana_tonante
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
If I was born in the 23rd century but was unlucky enough to be born without the abilitys to become a starfleet officer or scientist and I had the choice, live in la la land and do nothing and have every luxury I want provided or work in waste extraction or become a red shirt I think I will pick the lazy low risk do nothing option!
Well, that's you. If doing nothing makes you happy, and there is no stringent scarcity to overcome, I have no problem letting you waste away your days. Some people, on the other hand, have self-esteem and a desire to feel useful.
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Old May 21 2013, 04:10 PM   #86
sonak
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Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
Have you ever been on a long unemployment period or sick leave? It gets OLD.

I really don't think most people need encouragement to work. Most people need SOMETHING to do.

If you really imagine a world where all of your needs are taken care of, you're still going to want something to do; you're still going to want something to give you a sense of purpose. I can imagine people willingly working for free without any kind of coercion.

In the 24th century, 15 work hours a week from 25% of the population is probably more than enough work to keep the Federation running. People are probably competing for non-paying jobs.

exactly. I don't know where this "no one will work once their needs are taken care of!" attitude comes from. It's NOT based on evidence or "human nature." If it were true, once someone saved up a few million dollars, they'd retire and sit on the couch. Yet we have rich athletes, entertainers, and businessmen who all continue to work long after they don't have to. And we have people who (gasp!) volunteer their time at various organizations or sites when there's no personal gain or money involved.
I will repeat what I said 2 posts ago

Not everyone is going to be able to be a captain of a starship or be a doctor ect

Someone has got to do the REAL crapy jobs. I dont think anyone is going to enjoy scrubbing the poo tubes on a Fed starbase for example. But these jobs need doing so they will have to be some sort of reward system to act as incentives.

If I was born in the 23rd century but was unlucky enough to be born without the abilitys to become a starfleet officer or scientist and I had the choice, live in la la land and do nothing and have every luxury I want provided or work in waste extraction or become a red shirt I think I will pick the lazy low risk do nothing option!




At the end of the day people seem to think you have to have either 100% uncontrolled capitlism or 100% la la land unrealistic do what you want socity with zero indvidual responsibility.


As I said I see a very fair balance!!!

I suspect there will be less need for the real crappy jobs, but I still don't see how the argument "not everyone will have a great job" is a refutation of anything, because no one is claiming that they will.

Perhaps some kind of incentive system is used, or the "crappy jobs" are rotated democratically. Who knows? More to the point, what does it matter?

People voluntarily do stuff now like cleaning up trash in parks or clean up after animals in shelters, and they do it FOR FREE. So I don't understand why you think it would be different in the future.
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Old May 21 2013, 04:21 PM   #87
Crazyewok
Commander
 
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Put it has already been stated by sisko that there was some sort of "price" to pay for useing transporters for civilian use.

Im not saying its a corrupt Capitalist system like now.

But its does seem people do have to take SOME personal responsibility. Its not a childish do what you like socity.

Why is everyone not living in mansion?

Its shown that some people are living in box like appartments. Maybe you have to EARN a better home? But in this system everyone has the chance to get that dream mansion or penthouse appartmet all you have to do is WORK either it be cleaning starfleet toliets or inventing a transwarp drive.

Last edited by Crazyewok; May 21 2013 at 05:11 PM.
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Old May 21 2013, 05:03 PM   #88
iguana_tonante
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

We might not live in Federation's utopia yet, but spelling and punctuation are already free.
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Old May 21 2013, 05:10 PM   #89
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Politically I think each country would run itself much as before, surely? I always imagined the purview of the Federation is planetary representation rather than government.
This seems more sensible and likely.

I don't think the old cliche of "one world government" is either desirable or ever likely to happen.

The continual growth of multinational business and international travel, along with modern communications network is undermining even national governments.

Any real attempt at an international government would simply act as an accelerant to political terrorism of all kinds, and quite reasonably so.
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Old May 21 2013, 05:10 PM   #90
Crazyewok
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
We might not live in Federation's utopia yet, but spelling and punctuation are already free.
Im typing on a Ipad on the hurry.

Shot me for missing a few E and A's and comas on things.

Its a sign your argument makes sense when people start picking on spelling and grammer

There is one thing that pisses me off and thats Grammer and spelling NAZI's on a forum.
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