RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,347
Posts: 5,502,481
Members: 25,119
Currently online: 676
Newest member: mahler

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

Rumor Mill: Saldana Gives Birth
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

New Line of Anovos Enterprise Uniforms
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11

Frakes: Sign Me Up!
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 20 2013, 12:56 PM   #46
Crazyewok
Commander
 
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Crazyewok wrote: View Post
Ok I think that each Country would rule itself as long as it adhered to certain standards. It would mostly likely be like the UN but with teeth. As soon as a politician steps out of line or becomes corrupt starfleet security beam in and arrest them end of. People like Hitler, Sadam Hussian, Assador and all the other useless pieces of scum we have now days running things would have been removed from there position before they could hurt anyone.

As for economy I think It would be a Socialism/ Capitalist hybrid with a heavy leaning toward Socialism.

I think everyone Guaranteed:
Basic Food
Basic Clean Water
Housing
Education
Healthcare

But if you want a better house or a tastier food, holadeck time or a nice holiday you have to get a job and earn energy credits.

One things for certain there is no huge poor/ rich divide. There is enough work for everyone. And everyone gets the same top quality healthcare and education.
Based on everything we've seen on screen, apparently it costs no more to replicate a given amount of tastier food than it does to replicate the same amount of basic food, as you put it.
But its been repeatdly stated that replicated food tastes inferior to naturaly grown food.
Crazyewok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 01:07 PM   #47
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
I'd be wary of the Star Trek future in which the whole Earth falls under one government. It's apparently a prerequisite for us to found the Federation, in which every planet counts as one member (but we're the big dog and don't forget it ). Even so, it has disadvantages.

A single government for the Earth would have so many citizens that it simply could not be responsive to them. We'd be ruled by distant elites who would not necessarily share our values and priorities (much like the European Union today, in the eyes of many of its people).

And those elites wouldn't need to be responsive. A government with six billion constituents would not have to answer to any of them. Assuming you even had an elected representative in the legislature, he would either be powerless because the legislature is so large, or he would have so many constituents that you would mean nothing to him.
The European Union has 27 sovereign countries with 23 official languages. There's no government on top (yet), which is why things always get so incredibly complicated.

The basic difference between federal states (USA) and federations (EU).

A single government on top doesn't mean that there really is one single distant layer of administration. There are going to be many layers, just like today, down to the local level. Your town mayor, your district council.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 06:32 PM   #48
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
I think everyone Guaranteed:
Basic Food
Basic Clean Water
Housing
Education
Healthcare

But if you want a better house or a tastier food, holadeck time or a nice holiday you have to get a job and earn energy credits.
I would add basic clothing and limited transportation.

If you're traveling to school or a local destination you're good to go. However if you try to travel to a distant resort, or just site-seeing in a far away city, the basic travel won't accomidate you. In the case of clothing, you are provided approperate basic clothing for your climate, but if you want something currently fashionable, or snazzy "in" school clothes, or sexy club wear, you simply have to seek employment.

And you got keds on your feet, not new balance.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Based on everything we've seen on screen, apparently it costs no more to replicate a given amount of tastier food than it does to replicate the same amount of basic food, as you put it.
In one episode, Deanna Troi commented that even the chocolate created by the replicator is inferior to natural chocolate.

Providing only basic health food, but nothing beyond that might be a deliberate decision on the part of society. If you want more than basic, improve yourself by finding employment

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The European Union has 27 sovereign countries with 23 official languages. There's no government on top (yet), which is why things always get so incredibly complicated.

The basic difference between federal states (USA) and federations (EU).

A single government on top doesn't mean that there really is one single distant layer of administration. There are going to be many layers, just like today, down to the local level. Your town mayor, your district council.
It really depend on what you what to see for the future. The Members worlds governments controling the Federation Council, or the Federation Council controling the Member worlds governments.

Merry Christmas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 08:46 PM   #49
Cookies and Cake
Admiral
 
Location: North America
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Crazyewok wrote: View Post
Ok I think that each Country would rule itself as long as it adhered to certain standards. It would mostly likely be like the UN but with teeth. As soon as a politician steps out of line or becomes corrupt starfleet security beam in and arrest them end of. People like Hitler, Sadam Hussian, Assador and all the other useless pieces of scum we have now days running things would have been removed from there position before they could hurt anyone.

As for economy I think It would be a Socialism/ Capitalist hybrid with a heavy leaning toward Socialism.

I think everyone Guaranteed:
Basic Food
Basic Clean Water
Housing
Education
Healthcare

But if you want a better house or a tastier food, holadeck time or a nice holiday you have to get a job and earn energy credits.

One things for certain there is no huge poor/ rich divide. There is enough work for everyone. And everyone gets the same top quality healthcare and education.
Based on everything we've seen on screen, apparently it costs no more to replicate a given amount of tastier food than it does to replicate the same amount of basic food, as you put it.
But its been repeatdly stated that replicated food tastes inferior to naturaly grown food.
That's true. If the issue, then, is replicated food versus non-replicated food, which is by definition scarcer, then that's a different issue. But you didn't frame it that way to begin with; I don't see how a replicated four course meal with all the (replicated) trimmings can fairly count as "basic food".

And, I'll add that I didn't notice any evidence of any kind of accounting going on at Sisko's Creole Kitchen.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Based on everything we've seen on screen, apparently it costs no more to replicate a given amount of tastier food than it does to replicate the same amount of basic food, as you put it.
In one episode, Deanna Troi commented that even the chocolate created by the replicator is inferior to natural chocolate.

Providing only basic health food, but nothing beyond that might be a deliberate decision on the part of society. If you want more than basic, improve yourself by finding employment
See above.
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Cookies and Cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 09:03 PM   #50
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
But its been repeatdly stated that replicated food tastes inferior to naturaly grown food.
Which is odd because it's built from exactly the same stuff.
__________________
And that's my opinion.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 09:26 PM   #51
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Belz... wrote: View Post
Which is odd because it's built from exactly the same stuff.
Really? Which episode please.

I'll have to check the quote (can't do it now), but didn't Riker say that what the replicator produced was "as tasty" as the real thing, but not that it was "the same?"


Merry Christmas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 09:27 PM   #52
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

I think such a government could work without becoming too powerful if there were enough checks in the form of de-centralization, independent checks, etc. The real issue of course would be those that disagreed with it. The problem with one-world government would be that you couldn't escape it without leaving Earth. Would secession be a legal option if enough gathered together?
__________________
"why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?"
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 09:36 PM   #53
Third Nacelle
Captain
 
Third Nacelle's Avatar
 
Location: The Denorios Belt
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Which is odd because it's built from exactly the same stuff.
Really? Which episode please.

I'll have to check the quote (can't do it now), but didn't Riker say that what the replicator produced was "as tasty" as the real thing, but not that it was "the same?"


I think a big part of that is that the Enterprise's replicators are programmed for nutrition over taste. I think your average civilian could get a replicator that could produce food that is more similar to the "real" thing. Watch Deanna's convo with the computer at the beginning of The Price.
Third Nacelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 09:45 PM   #54
Cookies and Cake
Admiral
 
Location: North America
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Which is odd because it's built from exactly the same stuff.
Really? Which episode please.

I'll have to check the quote (can't do it now), but didn't Riker say that what the replicator produced was "as tasty" as the real thing, but not that it was "the same?"


I think a big part of that is that the Enterprise's replicators are programmed for nutrition over taste. I think your average civilian could get a replicator that could produce food that is more similar to the "real" thing. Watch Deanna's convo with the computer at the beginning of The Price.
That would be this [from http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/156.htm]:

TROI: Transfer the letters from my mother to the viewscreen. And, computer, I would like a real chocolate sundae.
COMPUTER: Define real in context, please.
TROI: Real. Not one of your perfectly synthesised, ingeniously enhanced imitations. I would like real chocolate ice cream, real whipped cream
COMPUTER: This unit is programmed to provide sources of acceptable nutritional value. Your request does not fall within current guidelines. Please indicate whether you wish to override the specified programme?
TROI: Listen
PICARD [OC]: Picard to Counsellor Troi.
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Cookies and Cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 11:20 PM   #55
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Which is odd because it's built from exactly the same stuff.
Really? Which episode please.

I'll have to check the quote (can't do it now), but didn't Riker say that what the replicator produced was "as tasty" as the real thing, but not that it was "the same?"


I don't know, but they create entire rooms full of objects that are just as complex and real in the holodeck, and replicate clothes and complex mechanisms that are also just as functional, so why would food be different ? I think they were just trying to find an excuse as to why people still cook. Well they still have one: it's fun.
__________________
And that's my opinion.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 11:36 PM   #56
Pavonis
Commodore
 
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

TROI: Transfer the letters from my mother to the viewscreen. And, computer, I would like a real chocolate sundae.
COMPUTER: Define real in context, please.
TROI: Real. Not one of your perfectly synthesised, ingeniously enhanced imitations. I would like real chocolate ice cream, real whipped cream
COMPUTER: This unit is programmed to provide sources of acceptable nutritional value. Your request does not fall within current guidelines. Please indicate whether you wish to override the specified programme?
TROI: Listen
PICARD [OC]: Picard to Counsellor Troi.
Aha! This exchange between Troi and the computer suggests that the replicators could provide her with a real chocolate sundae, except that the nutritional guidelines restrict serving delicious treats to Starfleet officers, in case their waistlines start to expand. Can't have that!

How many times did people really complain about the quality of food from the replicator? Mostly on DS9, right? Where the replicators were Cardassian and therefore probably optimized to serve Cardassian dishes. And one character, Sisko, was a chef, who would naturally be inclined to look down on replicated food, the way a chef might look down his or her nose at a meal of pre-packaged frozen lasagna reheated in a microwave. It might not be as good, but it's still lasagna.

Picard, too, complained, but specifically about the quality of replicated caviar. It could just be a problem with the caviar "recipe" loaded in the ship's computers. It's probably "pasteurized", and Picard may have grown up consuming unpasteurized caviar.

The idea that in the world of Trek, transporters are counted on to move people reliably on a daily basis, without apparently giving them any problems from accumulated errors in their bodies, but that replicators (based on the same technological principles and equipment) can't get food "right" doesn't strike me as verisimilitudinous.

Anyway, what does it mean for food to be "right"? My recipe for pecan pie might not be anything like your recipe for pecan pie, but whose recipe is "right"? The one that you prefer, of course. Which only means that "right" is a matter of opinion. Are the food replicators getting things "right"? Depends on whether the characters liked what they ordered from it or not.
Pavonis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 20 2013, 11:56 PM   #57
Crazyewok
Commander
 
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Belz... wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Which is odd because it's built from exactly the same stuff.
Really? Which episode please.

I'll have to check the quote (can't do it now), but didn't Riker say that what the replicator produced was "as tasty" as the real thing, but not that it was "the same?"


I don't know, but they create entire rooms full of objects that are just as complex and real in the holodeck, and replicate clothes and complex mechanisms that are also just as functional, so why would food be different ? I think they were just trying to find an excuse as to why people still cook. Well they still have one: it's fun.
Well there has to be SOME incentive as you still have Waiters and waitresses and menial jobs.

I mean how the hell do they get so many volenteer for starfleet security there has to be some incentive

Its either that or people are forcebly assigned jobs.....

I rather think my theory is better as its a gentle encouragrment to work.
Crazyewok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2013, 12:25 AM   #58
Third Nacelle
Captain
 
Third Nacelle's Avatar
 
Location: The Denorios Belt
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Have you ever been on a long unemployment period or sick leave? It gets OLD.

I really don't think most people need encouragement to work. Most people need SOMETHING to do.

If you really imagine a world where all of your needs are taken care of, you're still going to want something to do; you're still going to want something to give you a sense of purpose. I can imagine people willingly working for free without any kind of coercion.

In the 24th century, 15 work hours a week from 25% of the population is probably more than enough work to keep the Federation running. People are probably competing for non-paying jobs.
Third Nacelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2013, 12:29 AM   #59
Cookies and Cake
Admiral
 
Location: North America
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Let's keep in mind that waiters in Ten Forward were serving aboard a Galaxy-class starship captained by none other than Jean-Luc Picard. There probably would be a waiting list for applicants to such a position, even if the position offered no salary.
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Cookies and Cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2013, 12:44 AM   #60
Crazyewok
Commander
 
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
Have you ever been on a long unemployment period or sick leave? It gets OLD.

I really don't think most people need encouragement to work. Most people need SOMETHING to do.

If you really imagine a world where all of your needs are taken care of, you're still going to want something to do; you're still going to want something to give you a sense of purpose. I can imagine people willingly working for free without any kind of coercion.

In the 24th century, 15 work hours a week from 25% of the population is probably more than enough work to keep the Federation running. People are probably competing for non-paying jobs.

Yeah but being a waiter? Or the person who presses the button of the replicator in the factorys? Holodeck cleaners
Crazyewok is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
loony libertarians

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:46 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.