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Old May 24 2013, 01:07 AM   #151
MacLeod
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Location: Great Britain
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

They are differences between the USA and the EU. Unlike the USA the EU doesn't have the same shared history that the USA does.

And no one is saying that a Brit, a German etc.. should be less cared about than one another. I suspect that most EU citizens don't have a problem with each other.
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Old May 24 2013, 01:20 AM   #152
T'Girl
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Picard did describe the small replicator as "limited."
If it could make food and clothing, we would assume it could also make dishes, cups pens and the like.
Or the device's abilities might be limited to the two items that Picard mentioned. The small device wasn't "omni-capable," it couldn't for example make ceramics or metal items.

And there was no charge to use it.
There would the power requirements, and the shows technical advisers (non-canon) said that materials have to be fed into the replicator to get things out.

How could a larger unit cause a scarcity problem with energy then?
How many billions of other units would there be on Earth?

Credits may exist at the Federation level, not the earth level.
Problem there is, Quark was able to sell his wreaked shuttle here. So there is a financial system of some kind present.

And if replicator are the reason there is no requirement for money (as some have suggested), why would Quark's shuttle have any value in it's damaged condition?

... humans on earth do work and get jobs--they just dont get paid for it
Okay, then what about Aliens working on Earth?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Canonically, T'Girl, only Ben Sisko needed transporter credits, and then only to transport between San Francisco and New Orleans. We don't know why.
So, only Ben Sisko needed transporter credits.

Okay.

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
Capitalism and socialism are not the only two options. They are both fairly new systems in the grand scheme of things ...
Merchant capitalism dates back to the ninth century in the Arab world. Market economies (on Earth) have been around for thousands of years.


Last edited by T'Girl; May 24 2013 at 03:22 AM.
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Old May 24 2013, 01:28 AM   #153
horatio83
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
They are differences between the USA and the EU. Unlike the USA the EU doesn't have the same shared history that the USA does.

And no one is saying that a Brit, a German etc.. should be less cared about than one another. I suspect that most EU citizens don't have a problem with each other.
During the sovereign debt crises a lot of nationalist and racist crap came up the toilet. Here in Germany the mainstream opinion, is that Southern European countries faces problems because they are lazy people.
Long way towards a United Europe and later, to get back on topic, a United Earth.


T'Girl wrote: View Post
Market economies (on Earth) have been around for thousands of years.

No. Markets have always existed but modern free market economies have only existed for about 200 years. There was no significant GDP growth before the Industrial Revolution which, besides increasing technological progress (at least temporarily, there are economists who think that technological progress may slow down in the future) also came went hand in hand with the abolishment of competition-reducing institutions like gilds.

Institutions matter, free markets with a decent amount of competition do not arise naturally. Otherwise we wouldn't have been as poor as we were during the majority of human history and the capitalist wonder of steady real per capita GDP growth of about 1-2% per year would have occurred much earlier.
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Last edited by horatio83; May 24 2013 at 01:39 AM.
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Old May 24 2013, 08:19 AM   #154
MacLeod
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

^Oh I'm fully aware that some in Germany had the opinion that some people in the Southern parts of the EU where lazy. It came up when I visited family in Germany earlier in the year.

But as you say a long way to go to get to a United Europe, never mind a United Earth.
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Old May 24 2013, 06:27 PM   #155
T'Girl
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

horatio83 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Merchant capitalism dates back to the ninth century in the Arab world. Market economies (on Earth) have been around for thousands of years.
No.
Actual yes.

Markets have always existed ...
Which is what I said.

... but modern free market economies have only existed for about 200 years.
Which has what to do with what I said?

Merchant capitalism is over eleven centuries old, coined money to be used in commerce is twenty-five centuries old.

The shekel, as a standardized unit of weight to be used in trade, commerce and wages, is about fifty centuries old.

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Old May 24 2013, 06:41 PM   #156
Pavonis
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Problem there is, Quark was able to sell his wreaked shuttle here. So there is a financial system of some kind present.
We don't know to whom the wrecked shuttle was sold, though. It was sold on Earth, but not necessarily to a human. The Ferengi embassy, perhaps? Maybe the Bolians?


T'Girl wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post
Canonically, T'Girl, only Ben Sisko needed transporter credits, and then only to transport between San Francisco and New Orleans. We don't know why.
So, only Ben Sisko needed transporter credits.

Okay.
I'm just pointing out that you're doing what I did - assumed the existence of a larger system based on one mention of one item by one person. I assumed Starfleet Academy issued transporter credits to the cadets, to limit and regulate their movements. You assumed transporter credits exist as part of a market system of some kind. Either could be "right" (as much as anything can be "right" in a fictional universe), but it's possible both are wrong, too.

Any kind of function can be drawn through one data point. In that sense, one data point is useless, since it constrains nothing.
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Old May 24 2013, 09:18 PM   #157
Lynx
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
Václav Klaus isn't perfect, neither as politican or human. But he's at least honest and a freedom fighter for his country, not a traitor or corrupt sell out who lick the boots for the hotshots in charge of the EU.
You are right. He licks the boots of Putin instead.

I'll take Bruxelles, thank you. I prefer waffles over AK47.
Another cheap shot.

And a lie.

What's so good about the European Union that you have to come up with cheap shots, exaggerations and lies against those who question it?

Can you name any decent European Union politician?
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Old May 24 2013, 09:42 PM   #158
R. Star
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

A lie and a cheap shot? Sounds status quo for any political conversation.
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Old May 24 2013, 09:49 PM   #159
iguana_tonante
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

If I were you, I wouldn't scold people for "exaggerations and lies" after:

Lynx wrote: View Post
[In the EU] the once independent nations have been turned into Soviet Republics
Lynx wrote: View Post
[The EU is] a centralized, Soviet-style bureacracy
Lynx wrote: View Post
[Václav Klaus is] a freedom fighter for his country, not a traitor or corrupt sell out who lick the boots for the hotshots in charge of the EU.
I also liked how you defended the policies of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, a right-wing populist who amended the (already self-tailored) Hungarian constitution to increase his own power, curb civil rights, limit the independence of the judiciary, and allow prosecution of political dissidents and religious minorities.

If he, Vladimir Putin and Vaclav Klaus are your paragons of "political decency", then I am afraid I can't offer any European politician who can compare with those titans of democracy.
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Last edited by iguana_tonante; May 24 2013 at 10:19 PM.
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Old May 25 2013, 01:44 AM   #160
T'Girl
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Any kind of function can be drawn through one data point. In that sense, one data point is useless, since it constrains nothing.
It's sometimes surprising just how much of the Star Trek universe does come from "one data point."

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Old May 25 2013, 01:58 AM   #161
Count Zero
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Ah, I'm late to the party, it seems. That's what you get for being a mod in 3 forums.

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Crazyewok wrote: View Post
If I was born in the 23rd century but was unlucky enough to be born without the abilitys to become a starfleet officer or scientist and I had the choice, live in la la land and do nothing and have every luxury I want provided or work in waste extraction or become a red shirt I think I will pick the lazy low risk do nothing option!
Well, that's you. If doing nothing makes you happy, and there is no stringent scarcity to overcome, I have no problem letting you waste away your days. Some people, on the other hand, have self-esteem and a desire to feel useful.
I may have lost some of my sensitivity regarding cheap shots and insults thanks to the communication culture of my party (yes, I can go off-topic, too ) but that's very close to a flame (the part I bolded I mean). Please tone it down a notch or two. Thanks.

Everyone, please get back on topic. While the EU can serve as an example for some aspects of a debate about an United Earth the discussion shouldn't turn into a pro and contra-debate about the EU or a discussion of certain EU politicians the way it has for the last two to three pages. Thanks.
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Old May 25 2013, 03:35 AM   #162
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

I have a reasonable amount of self respect, but no burning need to "feel useful" on a social level. That seems like a fairly wan goal and motivation; human beings aren't utilities.
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Old May 25 2013, 07:30 AM   #163
MacLeod
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Location: Great Britain
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

We of course can't apply our 21st century viewpoint to having been born in the 23rd/24th century world of Star Trek. Being born and raised in that era our viewpoint would know doubt be different.

AS Count Zero says, the EU can serve as an example for a debate on a possible UNited Earth, because no doubt many of the issues the EU has, a potential UE might face.

I would agree that discussing certain EU politians doesn't belong in this forum, but highlighting what the EU does well/or doesn't do well can serve the debate esp. saying the title of this thread is United Earth? No Thanks. That could indicate that the OP is against such a position so highlighting why that would/wouldn't be a good thing means to a certain extend the pros-cons of the EU would get mentioned as an example. So long as it doesn't go to far. Though so far I would say most of the EU members that have commented have leaned slightly towards or are overall pro-EU.

The EU of course comes up every now and then in debates but that is only to be expected saying that a portion of these board members are from the EU.
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Old May 25 2013, 11:38 AM   #164
iguana_tonante
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Count Zero wrote: View Post
I may have lost some of my sensitivity regarding cheap shots and insults thanks to the communication culture of my party (yes, I can go off-topic, too ) but that's very close to a flame (the part I bolded I mean). Please tone it down a notch or two. Thanks.
Sure enough. I just want to make it clear, I was not talking about the specific poster, but saying that various studies have shown that having a job and feeling useful is very important to one's self-esteem. That's why losing your job or being unable to have one is linked to clinical depression and identity issues. I don't expect people in the Federation to sit on their ass all day just because they can: they'll get bored fast, and they'll feel the social and psychological pressure to do something. Of course, not everybody is the same, but I think only a small percentage of people will be satisfied with masturbating on the holodeck all day long.

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
I have a reasonable amount of self respect, but no burning need to "feel useful" on a social level.
You are a senior citizen. You are useful by being wise, and grumpy, and stuff.
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Old May 25 2013, 02:46 PM   #165
Count Zero
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
I would agree that discussing certain EU politians doesn't belong in this forum, but highlighting what the EU does well/or doesn't do well can serve the debate esp. saying the title of this thread is United Earth? No Thanks. That could indicate that the OP is against such a position so highlighting why that would/wouldn't be a good thing means to a certain extend the pros-cons of the EU would get mentioned as an example. So long as it doesn't go to far.
Well, what I was trying to say was that it had gone too far and gone on too long. A few posts that are technically off-topic but started off from the main debate are okay.


iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Count Zero wrote: View Post
I may have lost some of my sensitivity regarding cheap shots and insults thanks to the communication culture of my party (yes, I can go off-topic, too ) but that's very close to a flame (the part I bolded I mean). Please tone it down a notch or two. Thanks.
Sure enough. I just want to make it clear, I was not talking about the specific poster, but saying that various studies have shown that having a job and feeling useful is very important to one's self-esteem.
Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing that up.
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