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Old May 22 2013, 08:40 PM   #136
MacLeod
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Location: Great Britain
Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

^^I think you are mistaken in how the EU actually works, any law passed by the EU supercedes a national law if one exists covering that area.

There are actually three


A regulation which supercedes any national law.

A Directive in which the national government has to pass a law bassed on the
obectives

And a decision which only applies to a particualr issue.


And for a link which says EU Laws have supremecy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_...nion#Supremacy


And the biggest problem with the EU is that there is a disconnect between the electorate and the policitcans of the EU. In the past few years when ever a treaty has been presented to the electorate to vote on it has been often been rejcted even by the more pro-EU countries.

The EU can work but it needs to do a better job of explaining it goals/aims, pros & cons etc..

And support for the EU has been falling in some of the EU member states recently, with the recession, Eurozone crisis etc...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...902309736.html
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Old May 22 2013, 09:03 PM   #137
mos6507
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Back in the 1960s people were more concerned with division like the cold-war blowing the planet up. So having a united earth was actually a desirable goal. These days people fear dystopian illuminaughty dictatorships more than, let's say, the fact rogue states like Iran or NK might start WWIII. So really, there's two sides to every story.
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Old May 22 2013, 09:23 PM   #138
Nightdiamond
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Picard did describe the small replicator as "limited."
If it could make food and clothing, we would assume it could also make dishes, cups pens and the like. And there was no charge to use it.

So, portable replicator that could make such things which probably had an energy lifespan of over a hundred years. How could a larger unit cause a scarcity problem with energy then?


This would tie into Janeway's story of buying a meditation lamp from a Vulcan, but then where did Janeway (a Human) get money?

And if the other species in Starfleet are receiving paid, do the Humans in Starfleet then get the option of pay? Beverly did have that account.

My theory is that Starfleet pays them credits because they work in space and most likely to interact with cultures that use money.

Credits may exist at the Federation level, not the earth level.

Paying credits to use a replicator or transporter makes a lot of sense actually. It would explain a lot of things we see like Sisko's restaurant or why humans work at hard, dangerous jobs when they shouldn't have to.

But Trek already committed itself when it said humans don't use money and that it's obsolete.

So no matter how ridiculous it sounds, humans on earth do work and get jobs--they just dont get paid for it.
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Old May 23 2013, 03:50 AM   #139
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
The EU can work but it needs to do a better job of explaining it goals/aims, pros & cons etc..
Also wouldn't it be better if the EU dispensed with some of the odd bureaucracy and became a true multinational state, with a real President of Europe or whatever they chose to call it?
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Old May 23 2013, 11:21 AM   #140
Lynx
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

MakeTea-NotWar wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
The European Union is an example of how things shouldn't be done if you want cooperation between different nations. It has turned into an enourmous burreacracy where each and every decision is made behind locked doors and then presented as dictates to the inhabitant in the member countries, where the once independent nations have been turned into Soviet Republics where the citizens have very little influence on the politics and their own situation.
Are you for real? Anyone with half a brain can see that the European Union is powerless when it comes to virtually every single political issue. Any resolution passed by the european parliament has vitually no binding legal power behind it to enforce them. They're more suggestions then legislation. If they had any power at all, do you really think they'd allow nations like Hungry to remain members after it enacted some rather draconian press restriction laws
Yes, I'm for real, I live in an European Union country (unfortunately) and everything has been going down here since we joined this union.

I'm tired of dictates from the headquarters in Bruxelles which are heaped upon us with no chance for us to question or refuse to obey to. I'm tired of the bureacracy, the costly administration and the sum of money we have to pay to this bureacracy and its well-paid politicians each year, money we would need better here.

As for Hungary, they don't dare to expel them because then the people in more member countries would realize that Hungary would manage well without EU and then more countires would drop out, something which will hapen anyway in the coming future.

I'm actually for cooperation between the European countries but not in the way it is done in the EU. What Europe need is a confederation of free member states, not a centralized, Soviet-style bureacracy where the decisions are made behind closed doors, accepted by well-paid puppets and then heaped upon the citizens without possibility to question those decisions.
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Old May 23 2013, 12:20 PM   #141
MacLeod
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

The EU started out as an Free Trade Area, I suspect most people in the EU don't object to a Free Trade Area, the question is to they want a political union.
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Old May 23 2013, 01:30 PM   #142
Sci
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Lynx wrote: View Post
MakeTea-NotWar wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
The European Union is an example of how things shouldn't be done if you want cooperation between different nations. It has turned into an enourmous burreacracy where each and every decision is made behind locked doors and then presented as dictates to the inhabitant in the member countries, where the once independent nations have been turned into Soviet Republics where the citizens have very little influence on the politics and their own situation.
Are you for real? Anyone with half a brain can see that the European Union is powerless when it comes to virtually every single political issue. Any resolution passed by the european parliament has vitually no binding legal power behind it to enforce them. They're more suggestions then legislation. If they had any power at all, do you really think they'd allow nations like Hungry to remain members after it enacted some rather draconian press restriction laws
Yes, I'm for real, I live in an European Union country (unfortunately) and everything has been going down here since we joined this union.

I'm tired of dictates from the headquarters in Bruxelles which are heaped upon us with no chance for us to question or refuse to obey to. I'm tired of the bureacracy, the costly administration and the sum of money we have to pay to this bureacracy and its well-paid politicians each year, money we would need better here.

As for Hungary, they don't dare to expel them because then the people in more member countries would realize that Hungary would manage well without EU and then more countires would drop out, something which will hapen anyway in the coming future.

I'm actually for cooperation between the European countries but not in the way it is done in the EU. What Europe need is a confederation of free member states, not a centralized, Soviet-style bureacracy where the decisions are made behind closed doors, accepted by well-paid puppets and then heaped upon the citizens without possibility to question those decisions.
From the outside looking in, it seems to me that you're both right and you're both wrong.

The European Union is absolutely powerless in some areas -- it has no capacity, for instance, to make or prevent its Member States from going to war. Hence the United Kingdom invading Iraq while France and Germany oppose it.

But in other areas, the E.U. is very powerful and has a noticeable democratic deficit. In particular, it now has virtual veto power over any of its Member States' governments if that Member State needs a loan from the E.U. as a result of the Great Recession -- in particular, this means that the E.U.'s most economically powerful Member, Germany, has veto power. So you have a situation where, say, the people of Greece may as a majority support one particular guy to be P.M. or one particular piece of fiscal policy, but if the Bundestag doesn't like it, then the Greek government doesn't do it.

And of course, there's the classic dilemma over the division of fiscal and monetary policy between the Member States and the E.U. itself, which is unsustainable in the long run.

I'd suggest that the end result is that in the long run, the European Union will either have to give up many of the sovereign powers its Member States have delegated to it (and thus become just another regional alliance), or will have to become itself a sovereign, democratic state in which all the people of Europe have equal say.
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Old May 23 2013, 02:23 PM   #143
iguana_tonante
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Lynx wrote: View Post
every decision is made behind locked doors and then presented as dictates to the inhabitant in the member countries, where the once independent nations have been turned into Soviet Republics where the citizens have very little influence on the politics and their own situation.


Lynx wrote: View Post
Yes, I'm for real, I live in an European Union country (unfortunately) and everything has been going down here since we joined this union.

I'm tired of dictates from the headquarters in Bruxelles which are heaped upon us with no chance for us to question or refuse to obey to. I'm tired of the bureacracy, the costly administration and the sum of money we have to pay to this bureacracy and its well-paid politicians each year, money we would need better here.
I see you drank fully the excuses of local politicians who shifted the blame to the EU for their shenanigans and fuck-ups.

That's not to say the EU doesn't have its own problems and fuck-ups, but "Soviet-style bureaucracy"? Come on.
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Last edited by iguana_tonante; May 23 2013 at 02:36 PM.
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Old May 23 2013, 02:51 PM   #144
Lynx
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

^^^
Just let me quote the former Czech President Václav Klaus, one of the few decent politicians in Europe:

We got rid of Moscow and got Bruxelles instead.

So true.
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Old May 23 2013, 06:32 PM   #145
iguana_tonante
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Vaclas Klaus? The guy who claim that climate change is a communist conspiracy?

Also, I've heard he really likes pens...
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Old May 23 2013, 07:25 PM   #146
Lynx
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

^^
That was really low.

Václav Klaus isn't perfect, neither as politican or human. But he's at least honest and a freedom fighter for his country, not a traitor or corrupt sell out who lick the boots for the hotshots in charge of the EU.
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Old May 23 2013, 08:32 PM   #147
horatio83
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

This right-wing EUDSSR talk is right as it addresses the democracy deficit (Habermas "postdemocratic executive federalism" is still the best description of how EU governance basically works) and wrong as it implies that there is something leftish about the EU.
If its institutions are biased in anyway than it is in the (neo)liberal direction. Examples are most obviously the way the sovereign debt crisis is handled and before that the European attempts to enforce competition (in general a good idea) even in labour markets (not so good, national labour market regulations are squeezed in the name of competition).
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Old May 23 2013, 08:38 PM   #148
iguana_tonante
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Lynx wrote: View Post
Václav Klaus isn't perfect, neither as politican or human. But he's at least honest and a freedom fighter for his country, not a traitor or corrupt sell out who lick the boots for the hotshots in charge of the EU.
You are right. He licks the boots of Putin instead.

I'll take Bruxelles, thank you. I prefer waffles over AK47.
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Old May 23 2013, 11:59 PM   #149
MacLeod
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

I still think the EU needs reforming.

1.>Net recipents of the EU budget should have no say in when it comes to increase/decrease in the EU budget, of course they are going to vote for more money. They are of course able to have a say in how that money is spend.

2.>The CAP and CFP still need some more reform.

Given time I could list more things that need reforming, but at the end of the day I suspect little will really change. As each member state tends to look after it's own best interest rather than the EU as a whole.
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Old May 24 2013, 12:49 AM   #150
horatio83
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
1.>Net recipents of the EU budget should have no say in when it comes to increase/decrease in the EU budget, of course they are going to vote for more money. They are of course able to have a say in how that money is spend.
This is not how e.g. the US works. North Dakota might get more federal money than New York but this doesn't imply that Dakotian representatives in (federal) Congress are forbidden from voting on the issues which impact their state (which are numerous).
And this is not how any other national government relates to its states or how any state government relates to is municipalities.

Nobody minds economic differences inside a nation so why, implicitly assuming that fiscal cooperation increases as the the long-run goal is a United States of Europe, should it be different for Europe? I don't care less about a Briton than a Bavarian.
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