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Old November 25 2013, 08:33 PM   #751
sojourner
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Not sure why you quoted me with your "no". Unless you're unfamiliar with the fable.
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Old November 25 2013, 08:46 PM   #752
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

sojourner wrote: View Post
Why did the scorpion sting the frog?
Agree.



sojourner wrote: View Post
I think the preview for next week was a smoke screen. The confrontation with the governor will be a cliffhanger at the end of the episode and we'll spend most of the episode dealing with our group at the prison.
Agree.


Speculation: We found the heads, but I am wondering if the three headless 'army' guys corpses are part of a larger group of rogue living army troops that might have slaughtered that small group of people for supplies. I am also wondering if this yet unseen group will be introduced and create a greater threat that will unite Rick and the Governor.
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Old November 25 2013, 08:49 PM   #753
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

sojourner wrote: View Post
Not sure why you quoted me with your "no". Unless you're unfamiliar with the fable.
I'm about as familiar with it as Chakotay is.

I was only pointing out that it's more than just his nature. He has a reason for doing what he does, even though his reasons are sick and twisted.
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Old November 25 2013, 09:06 PM   #754
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Venardhi wrote: View Post
These two episodes have been pretty useless. As a character study it is somewhat interesting, but it was just 2 hours of watching The Governor turn into the character he was to begin with. He could have shown back up without them and the net effect on the overall story would be zero.
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
I find it funny that a few WD fans thought the Governor was somehow humanized by this new family--specifically Penny 2.0. He's a mass murderer ... and how many times do we need to see ... that he is truly evil?

He's not Merle (11th hour change of heart). He's just a mass murderer, and all of the surrogate family fantasies in the world cannot change that.


We were supposed to think it was an arc where he was humanized again, and then fell again. Actually he was the same character the whole time. Martinez thought he had changed too, but he hadn't. Martinez didn't know him well enough.

Unlike Martinez, we were given some insight into what drives him. He's a twisted, disturbed, mass-murdering individual all right, but he's also more than just a mustache-twirling villain.

Basically: when he "cares about" someone, it brings out some sort of paternal/protective behavior to a totally obsessive degree. It's like throwing a switch. He becomes capable of doing anything in order to take care of that person. He has no remorse for his actions and he knows they're wrong, but he justifies his actions because of this protective monomania. Whether he can feel actual love is open for debate, but even if he does, he probably thinks he owns that person. (Maybe not just people, either... you could make the argument for the whole Woodbury community, too.) Fortunately, he has a massive amount of charm he can call on to cover up his inconsistencies.

That's why he suddenly stuffed his surrogate family in the car and ran ... the camp was not safe enough. He finally decided the best option to protect them was to kill Pete and take over the camp.

It's also exactly how he behaved with Zombie Penny. Obsessive love mixed with massive denial and probably some delusions of grandeur too.

You take away whatever he's protecting, and he loses any semblance of rationality, which is what happened at the end of last season.

And in his "off" moments, he's REALLY off. Again, it's like turning off a switch. He becomes just short of catatonic. Obviously we saw it in the last episode, but that's also how he behaved when he was sitting in front of his walker aquarium.

TheSeeker wrote: View Post

Because Martinez knew him from the old days and was starting to bring it up too much in front of The Governor's new family. Obviously the Governor doesn't want his new family to know about his past.
sojourner wrote: View Post
Why did the scorpion sting the frog?
No, he had made the decision that Martinez was the wrong person to lead the camp (thereby putting his surrogate family at risk). That's why he was murmuring objections while he was killing Martinez. Either he couldn't accept Martinez as leader or he couldn't accept sharing leadership, which was what Martinez had just offered.
That's basically it.. Interviewed about the scene, DM comments that it was Martinez's admitted weakness that forced the Governor's hand.
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Old November 25 2013, 09:54 PM   #755
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

So did Not!Maggie get her hair died darker while The Governor was in the Biter-Pit? It looked significantly different in this episode.
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Old November 25 2013, 09:56 PM   #756
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

^I was wondering about Marinez's murder too. I thought it was just that he lost it when he started talking about their past.
Overall, I thought this one was better than last weeks, but still not quite as good as the rest of the season up to this point. It just feels like we could have gotten all of the necessary stuff a lot quicker than we did.
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Old November 25 2013, 10:03 PM   #757
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

On him killing Martinez its because he wants to be in charge!!
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Old November 25 2013, 10:07 PM   #758
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

The Governor killed Martinez the moment Martinez suggested that they should share leadership duties because Martinez wasn't sure he could handle the role entirely by himself. The Governor was fine taking orders from someone who was capable of leading and willing to do whatever it takes to survive (in his sick, twisted perspective), but the moment they expressed any self-doubt or weren't willing to raid and kill other camps for their supplies he killed them without hesitation. Like most villains, he doesn't think of himself as evil or killing just because he enjoys it; he feels his actions are justified for the greater good. He's got a very consistent set of rules about what he considers right and wrong, they're just really warped.
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Old November 25 2013, 10:13 PM   #759
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Mojochi wrote: View Post
^To some degree, probably yes, but I suspect there'll still be some conflict happening between the two, if not full blown skirmish
Whether the conflict begins early, or ends the mid-season finale, I hope this is not replay of the assbrained Governor attack in the season 3 finale, as he should have learned military weapons and vehicles--even with a couple of ex-soldiers present--does not make a successful fighting force.

Moreover, the tank is not small arms; it causes the kind of destruction which--if aimed at the prison walls--would make overtaking the prison pointless, and an open door for armies of walkers.

By the way, where is Penny 2.0 going to be during the fight? The Governor will not leave her back at his camp, so what will he do? Use her as a prop to call Rick on his assumed no surrender/to the death stand?

Regarding Carol, I think her Han Solo/"you're all clear, kid!" return moment will be reserved for the second half of the season, when Rick's side is close to checking out of the world.
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Old November 25 2013, 10:52 PM   #760
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
The Governor killed Martinez the moment Martinez suggested that they should share leadership duties because Martinez wasn't sure he could handle the role entirely by himself. The Governor was fine taking orders from someone who was capable of leading and willing to do whatever it takes to survive (in his sick, twisted perspective), but the moment they expressed any self-doubt or weren't willing to raid and kill other camps for their supplies he killed them without hesitation. Like most villains, he doesn't think of himself as evil or killing just because he enjoys it; he feels his actions are justified for the greater good. He's got a very consistent set of rules about what he considers right and wrong, they're just really warped.
Absolutely!
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Old November 25 2013, 11:21 PM   #761
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

I liked the episode. I kept thinking "when is Brian going to murder someone" and just as I thought "maybe they'll make him a changed man because we expect him to kill someone", he kills someone.
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
The Governor killed Martinez the moment Martinez suggested that they should share leadership duties because Martinez wasn't sure he could handle the role entirely by himself. The Governor was fine taking orders from someone who was capable of leading and willing to do whatever it takes to survive (in his sick, twisted perspective), but the moment they expressed any self-doubt or weren't willing to raid and kill other camps for their supplies he killed them without hesitation. Like most villains, he doesn't think of himself as evil or killing just because he enjoys it; he feels his actions are justified for the greater good. He's got a very consistent set of rules about what he considers right and wrong, they're just really warped.
How do you justify gunning down a crowd?

Honestly, Martinez should have known better. During that scene where Martinez is leading in the woods and letting Brian trail behind, I thought he was an idiot for giving him the open shot. Plus, he shouldn't have shown any sign of weakness in front of the Ex-Governor who guns down crowds for submissiveness.

Last edited by bbjeg; November 25 2013 at 11:32 PM.
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Old November 26 2013, 01:52 AM   #762
Locutus of Bored
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

bbjeg wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
The Governor killed Martinez the moment Martinez suggested that they should share leadership duties because Martinez wasn't sure he could handle the role entirely by himself. The Governor was fine taking orders from someone who was capable of leading and willing to do whatever it takes to survive (in his sick, twisted perspective), but the moment they expressed any self-doubt or weren't willing to raid and kill other camps for their supplies he killed them without hesitation. Like most villains, he doesn't think of himself as evil or killing just because he enjoys it; he feels his actions are justified for the greater good. He's got a very consistent set of rules about what he considers right and wrong, they're just really warped.
How do you justify gunning down a crowd?
I don't justify it at all. I'm looking at things from the messed up perspective of the Governor.

As to how he justifies it, I don't see why you'd be so mystified, since you gave the same reason as I did in your next paragraph:

Honestly, Martinez should have known better. During that scene where Martinez is leading in the woods and letting Brian trail behind, I thought he was an idiot for giving him the open shot. Plus, he shouldn't have shown any sign of weakness in front of the Ex-Governor who guns down crowds for submissiveness.
He killed Martinez for showing self-doubt. He killed his retreating followers for showing cowardice. He's the ultimate follower of the principle of survival of the fittest, and anyone who is not up to his standards of fitness is a danger to the rest of the group and must be eliminated. It's just with the Woodbury raiders, he went nuts and killed half the town.

I'm not saying the guy is right or smart in the way he handles things. He's completely crazy, and manages to repeatedly kill off or alienate his best fighters and scavengers, which is not a sustainable plan for preserving a community. I'm just trying to show how he justifies the horrific nature of his actions to himself.
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Old November 26 2013, 02:01 AM   #763
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Mojochi wrote: View Post
The only interesting thing this episode showed us was that there's still plenty of human groups out there, & they are actually wiping each other out, which is an even worse aspect to the end of civilization

Yeah, I forgot I wanted to mention that scene too. There are 2 possibilities:

1- The Governor killed them all while supposedly out on the hunting trip. That's how he knew to go back and check on them of course. Pete and Mitch obviously didn't hear the raid in the first place, so it's not like they'd have any idea whether it was him or not. Didn't the Governor have some extra barbed wire later on in the episode too, after he took over the group?


2- Killers abound in the TWD world. If that's the case, and people really are just out there killing other people, then the Governor is just some normal guy. If everyone is in the kill-to-survive mode, then the Governor is the norm, and the folks at our prison are the exception. That's a bit of a scary thought, as it certainly doesn't bode well for the future of humanity.


Whoever raided that camp, be it the Governor or some other group, why in the world didn't they make sure that everybody was dead (including "stabbed in the brain" dead)? Leaving survivors or dying people who will later turn into zombies to chase you is not a good idea. Would the other unseen group of people have been pressed for time? I doubt it. But the Governor would have, as he'd have been in a rush to get back to Pete and Mitch at some predetermined time and place. So if it was a rush job, he may have been the guilty party.
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Old November 26 2013, 02:09 AM   #764
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
I am "disappointed" that it looks like his character arc took him into a circle so he's back where he started -a mustache twirling bad guy who's an evil killer just 'cause. Hopefully the conflict at the prison will end with the fall of the prison and the Governor's death and the series can get a little "back on track."
I get what you're saying about it just feeling like a circle, and you're right. However, he's not just an evil guy out for revenge anymore, he's got a family to protect, and that makes him feel even more dangerous.

We saw that he doesn't necessarily even want to do what he's doing, but he feels forced into it.

While you're right about it feeling like a circle, I do think it makes him a more compelling antagonist.
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Old November 26 2013, 02:27 AM   #765
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

I think next week's episode will go down pretty much how it does in the comics.
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