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Old November 4 2013, 08:08 PM   #496
Adm. Maleficent
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

davejames wrote: View Post
I don't understand those who say Rick wasn't justified in killing Shane. It was always obvious that he kept Shane around as long as he did because they needed the manpower and he was damn good at killing zombies. Rick gambled that it was worth the risk, until obviously things came to a head and he had no choice but to kill him in self-defense.

As for Carol, her actions might have been justified if the entire group was trapped together in the same room or something. But Karen and David had already been isolated in a separate building and were no danger to anybody anymore, except other sick people. To not even give them a chance to heal and overcome the sickness just seems wrong and cruel to me.

It showed that Carol had become so cold she might kill any ONE of them in their sleep if she thought there was the slightest chance they could pose a threat. Which is definitely not someone you want to keep around for long.
Maybe, but watch her come back leading a bigger group. People always like direct action.
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Old November 4 2013, 08:27 PM   #497
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Logically, Rick will arrive back at the prison, brush off quesitons about Carol and then pull Darryl/Herschel/Glen/Maggie aside and explain to them what happened. The idea that exiling her for her own protection against Tyresse's reprisal for her actions is/was sound. Should Tyresse try to exact revenge, he would certainly have support from others from Woodbury. This would pit them against the core WD cast and create a civil war like atmosphere within the confines of the prison.

While I can certainly see merit in supporting what Carol did, the reprocussions, I think, would be too great in leaving her unpunished..
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Old November 4 2013, 09:17 PM   #498
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

^ That's not why Rick did it though. He confessed to her that the reason was because even he believed she couldn't be in the group anymore. He couldn't have it & others would be of the same mind. Is she wrong in doing what she did to increase odds of survival? Maybe, maybe not. I can see support in either way of looking at it. Regardless, killing your group members because they pose a risk might be a good way to survive, but it's a bad way to survive with other people, because they will never again see you as being on their side anymore. There can be no allegiance in a group where at any turn they might cut you down, or leave you behind

It was shitty moral compass when Shane felt that way & it still is. Maybe it works to keep alive longer, but then you just need to strike out on your own. No one will be able to unite with you being that way
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Old November 4 2013, 09:55 PM   #499
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

TREK_GOD_1 wrote:
....
Are you even watching the same show as the rest of us?! Shane was an active threat and SET TO KILL Rick. Rick killed Shane in self defense. Carol killed to innocent people who were locked up and even if/when they died and turned they were in cells and posed no threat. Carol killed them, wrongly, and without consulting the Council.
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Old November 4 2013, 10:31 PM   #500
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Maybe Carol will run into the Governor. Maybe she'll even join whatever group he has, although perhaps not entirely willingly. This seems like such an easy dramatic conflict though.
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Old November 4 2013, 11:41 PM   #501
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

What Carol did was wise, pragmatic, very practical and utterly wrong on every level.

Whether her attempt to contain the infection was successful or not is immaterial. She took it upon herself to euthanize two helpless people in their sleep. How can anyone possibly trust her knowing that she could something like that again?

It wasn't her call, it wasn't her duty, it wasn't her responsibility. Ironically it's a similar attitude to the one Shane had when he wanted to call off the search for Sophia. "Someone has to step up and do the hard thing" or words to that effect. Except what he wanted and what Carol did was just the opposite. It was the easiest thing in the world. The quick fix. The simple solution. For all Carol's talk of not being afraid and never giving up, she's the one that acted purely out of fear.

Those people could easily have been rendered harmless even if they turned. They are in a prison, no? Those doors have pretty sturdy locks and I'm sure there's still a whole lot of cuffs and leg irons all over the joint. It doesn't take much imagination to see what kind of precautions could have been taken.
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Old November 4 2013, 11:49 PM   #502
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Glad Carol is gone I have no time for her character she went off the deep end like Shane and there is no way back. I only regret Tyresse won't get his revenge. Rick was right she simply can't be trusted she would kill people at her whim soon as she considered them dangerous to her and her little brats she thinks she's mothering.
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Old November 5 2013, 12:15 AM   #503
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Venardhi wrote: View Post
He blew some kid's head off who was there to kill them and wasn't putting his gun down fast enough. Herschel couldn't see past the fact that he was a kid.
I still disagree with Carl's action and think Rick was completely justified to take his gun away - but there's no comparison between what he did and what Carol did. Carl was protecting people in the middle of a combat situation and there was a potential imminent threat - Karen and David were contained and no threat. Also, Carl's a preteen - Carol's a middle-aged (?) adult.

And her trying to compare what she did with Rick killing Shane is just laughable, since Shane was actively trying to kill Rick. Same as with her "they were the only ones infected" bullshit - one person had already died, and viruses/pathogens don't just magically affect two or three people. Rick was right that people wouldn't be able to trust her if they knew the truth.

Daryl will be upset but he'll understand, and Tyrese will accept the logic of Rick's decision even if his bloodlust (it's pretty obvious now why he's made such an effort to be a nice guy) doesn't like it.

If Carol comes back with another group to take the prison (highly unlikely for her to lead like that) or joins up with the Governor, it'll be as a villain.
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Old November 5 2013, 12:19 AM   #504
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Wow, that was something else. Rick unquestionably made a very bad call here. He basically did the same thing that Carol did-- he made a unilateral decision without consulting the council or the community. This is especially egregious since he was tasked to be the community's police officer.

Carol felt that the two sick people represented an imminent threat to the community, which is a reasonable opinion. But what she should have done was gone to the council and made a proposal. And, of course, they should have shot it down because of not killing the living and not euthanizing people for the greater good and so forth, but that part is beside the point.

Rick learned that Carol was the killer. He should have locked her up, and they should have put her on trial as best they could-- judge, prosecution, defense, and jury. Then the community should have decided on her guilt and punishment, whether it be imprisonment, exile, or execution. To do this after giving up his leadership to the council was supremely hypocritical.
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Old November 5 2013, 03:55 AM   #505
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Well said RJD. This is exactly what I have been trying to say to some people on another site, but I haven't been very successful in getting my point across yet. Thank you for assuring me that I'm not "crazy"
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Old November 5 2013, 04:26 AM   #506
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

I think locking her up, giving her a "fair trial" and all of that is pure fantasy given the environment they're living in. I don't think Rick made the greatest of choices but he did what he thought was best for the group, the best for Carol and most importantly the best for him and his children. I mean, really, how much can she really be trusted now is she sneaked off to KILL two members of their group who, really, were not a threat? (Again, considering they were locked up and contained.)
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Old November 5 2013, 04:59 AM   #507
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote:
....
Are you even watching the same show as the rest of us?! Shane was an active threat and SET TO KILL Rick.
Are you watching the show at all? The intelligent do not screw around with those who are on their way to becoming walkers, as explained in the examples a page ago.

Rick killed Shane in self defense.
Rick cannot keep his story straight: if he was pushing him and "compromising" the group all along, then exlile him. He did not, so Shane's blood is on his hands, as he knew what was coming. Oh, and there's that wee lil incident where Shane tried to kill him during the trip to exile Randall.

What did Rick do after that? Invite his good 'ol buddy right back in a position to threaten him.

He had every chance to deal with the problem before the events of "Better Angels," but did not, and again, in the season 2 finale, he was of the opinion that Shane was a problem all along--not just in that walk in the woods, yet he continued to do nothing about it. Some might think he just played Shane with that talk at the end of their fight ("18 Miles Out") just to "save him for later."

He's full of it.

Finally, for those who think Rick is some moral compass, this is the same guy who ordered Merle to hand deliver Michonne into the Governor's hands--knowing what would happen to her. It matters not what he thought after the fact, he was willing to send a living person to her death.

This is the guy some are defending?

On the other hand, he kicks Carol out for acting in the best interests of everyone. Considering his quaetionable past detailed above, he should rocket his boot up his own butt for decisions with far worse implications.
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Old November 5 2013, 05:03 AM   #508
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Wow, that was something else. Rick unquestionably made a very bad call here. He basically did the same thing that Carol did-- he made a unilateral decision without consulting the council or the community. This is especially egregious since he was tasked to be the community's police officer.
Yeah, the cop who wanted to deliver Michonne to the Governor.

How did he earn that badge?

To do this after giving up his leadership to the council was supremely hypocritical.
...for many reasons.
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Old November 5 2013, 05:06 AM   #509
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Finally, for those who think Rick is some moral compass, this is the same guy who ordered Merle to hand deliver Michonne into the Governor's hands--knowing what would happen to her. It matters not what he thought after the fact, he was willing to send a living person to her death.
Er.... no. Rick's plan was to deliver Michonne himself with a group. Merle took it on his own to deliver Michonne himself, believing Rick wouldn't be able to do it.

Rick cannot keep his story straight: if he was pushing him and "compromising" the group all along, then exlile him. He did not, so Shane's blood is on his hands, as he knew what was coming. Oh, and there's that wee lil incident where Shane tried to kill him during the trip to exile Randall.
Regardless of Rick's stories, we saw what happened. Rick killed Shane (per-emptively) in self-defense.
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Old November 5 2013, 05:14 AM   #510
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

I didn't like seeing Carol leave but I'm with Rick on that episode. True he made a unilateral decision without consulting the council but he didn't kill anyone, Ty would have opened her "fail trial" cell and killed her if they considered exile, and then he'll get exiled and they're down two. Plus Rick has the leadership role on his record, the rest of the group will understand.
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