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Old October 26 2013, 04:14 PM   #271
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Reverend wrote: View Post
Communications are no good if there's nobody on the other end to pick-up. We saw in the flashbacks that containment is exactly what they tried. It didn't work. For obvious reasons, modern militaries are neither trained nor equipped to deal with a global pandemic in which corpses rise from the dead and eat people. They're equipped to deal with people with guns, tanks, aircraft, bombs and missiles.
I'm talking about communications between emergency locations, not to the random person. TWD never established how it all started, and the show's convenient avoidance of early media response (including that of government officials worldwide) protected the creators from providing necessary explanations, but opened the door to apply real world based speculation about government response.

Starting with the napalm flashback to the helicopter in "Beside the Dying Fire," to the National Guard outfit attacked by the Governor, it is clear a government structure exists to some degree, as missions were carried out, and resources exist, which suggests there is some effort to restore order and/or contain the walker threat.

Regarding the nuke option, we do not know if it was explored in another part of the country, or how effective napalm was/extent of its use on cities. We can assume such a high level order means one sort of structure remains in operation.

Also, how is the town's leader having trouble makers murdered and keeping their undead severed heads in his fish tank not "internal conflict"?
Because the townspeople did not know about the heads. It seems clear that his inner circle partifipated in the beheading of victims, but the townspeople were content with (as the Governor chided) picnics, etc., thinking they were under the protection of some glorious leader in a world of chaos.

Shane's not a good example either since he lost it and tried to murder his best friend so he could sleep with his wife again. Do you think all the Presidents, Prime Ministers, Generals and Admirals of the world are immune to just loosing their shit at the sheer scale of the horror?
The first rule of power is that those with it intend to keep it as long as possible. The average person might panic and run into the streets (and into the arms of danger), but you can bet that people with the most to lose will fight to keep it. This is not saying some in government will not fall apart, but the visual evidence of military presence means it s more than a couple of employees in a bunker or metal shed in downtown Washington.
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Old October 26 2013, 04:33 PM   #272
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

shivkala wrote: View Post
How, exactly, do they lock the cell doors? I imagine there's not enough keys for everyone and they're not exactly designed to be opened by those inside. Though, if everyone had their own key, it would make sense for everyone to be locked in.
Block the original locking mechanism, then give everyone a chain and padlock.
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Old October 26 2013, 04:35 PM   #273
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Starting with the napalm flashback to the helicopter in "Beside the Dying Fire," to the National Guard outfit attacked by the Governor, it is clear a government structure exists to some degree, as missions were carried out, and resources exist, which suggests there is some effort to restore order and/or contain the walker threat.
Other than the Napalm flashback (which could have been the last attempt by the government before it collapsed, given it was a flashback after all), there's been no indication that the military units we've seen weren't just a few stragglers left with their equipment, trying to survive on their own after the government collapsed.

It's a little like Rick and Shane in season one. Just because we had two cops with guns, one of whom still had his badge and gun, didn't mean the police forces were still operable.
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Old October 26 2013, 04:39 PM   #274
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

There have been no signs of a coordinated government since the early part of the first season, at least not in the United States. The closest we've seen is one, single group of GIs who managed to keep a helicopter and some other gear, but clearly had no contact with any sort of governing body (else it would have come up after the Governor stole all their shit, which logically would have included their radio and other communication gear, including the stuff in the helicopter). Hell, they're probably the same helicopter we saw in the first season, too, though there's no confirmation of that as far as I know.

Other than that, though, there have been no signs of any noteworthy government still in operation. No scouting missions. No radio transmissions (which they would be using since there's no reason not to; it's not like zombies can hone in on radio signals). Nada.

If there are still fragments left, they've completely isolated themselves, and many if not most of them have likely suffered the same issues the show's groups have suffered since then. It just takes one person dying, whether the rest of the group is aware of it or not, to start up the apocalypse again.

And, honestly, if a fucking fortress built by the CDC only managed to have one guy left, with them clearly having known about the virus before it was even unleashed, I doubt very many other government agencies did a much better job of holding off the hordes.
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Old October 26 2013, 05:41 PM   #275
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

I saw this and had to post it:
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Old October 26 2013, 05:54 PM   #276
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
There have been no signs of a coordinated government since the early part of the first season, at least not in the United States. The closest we've seen is one, single group of GIs who managed to keep a helicopter and some other gear, but clearly had no contact with any sort of governing body (else it would have come up after the Governor stole all their shit, which logically would have included their radio and other communication gear, including the stuff in the helicopter). Hell, they're probably the same helicopter we saw in the first season, too, though there's no confirmation of that as far as I know.
I was wondering about that as well. It would be a simple explanation for why we saw that helicopter and why it happened be heading from Atlanta to the area around the farm, Woodbury, the prison, etc.

As for your other point, yeah, if they were part of a larger military operation and didn't check in it would have made sense that the government/military would have headed out to the area to investigate why no one came back, especially after there was a distress call.

And, honestly, if a fucking fortress built by the CDC only managed to have one guy left, with them clearly having known about the virus before it was even unleashed, I doubt very many other government agencies did a much better job of holding off the hordes.
Presactly. And didn't the CDC guy say the French government was the last to fall? That would imply that all the other governments are gone.
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Old October 26 2013, 06:25 PM   #277
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

the G-man wrote: View Post

I was wondering about that as well. It would be a simple explanation for why we saw that helicopter and why it happened be heading from Atlanta to the area around the farm, Woodbury, the prison, etc.

As for your other point, yeah, if they were part of a larger military operation and didn't check in it would have made sense that the government/military would have headed out to the area to investigate why no one came back, especially after there was a distress call.
No one can assume any of the observed military were not on recon, or anything else. What we do know is that they were active. The guards attacked by the Governor were not sitting around lost, and after a year+ of the outbreak, they appeared quite healthy and well-armed. How did they maintain this after more than a year of a situation where food and weapons would (in theory) be exausted to the point the guards should not be in that healthy (physical & mechanical) health?



And, honestly, if a fucking fortress built by the CDC only managed to have one guy left, with them clearly having known about the virus before it was even unleashed, I doubt very many other government agencies did a much better job of holding off the hordes.
Presactly. And didn't the CDC guy say the French government was the last to fall? That would imply that all the other governments are gone.
The CDC's staff bailed, committed suicide, etc. (not exactly the first line of defense), and they are not the heart of the government--particularly since they were clueless regarding the reanimation of flesh-eating corpses. They were not an example of the security hub of the state, or nation. Do you think the main body of government would not act with contingency plans if the CDC failed to uncover the problem or address it? Do you believe they would just sit around waiting to become dinner?
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Old October 26 2013, 06:59 PM   #278
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
with them clearly having known about the virus before it was even unleashed,
Wait, what?
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Old October 26 2013, 07:24 PM   #279
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

No one can assume any of the observed military were not on recon, or anything else. What we do know is that they were active. The guards attacked by the Governor were not sitting around lost, and after a year+ of the outbreak, they appeared quite healthy and well-armed. How did they maintain this after more than a year of a situation where food and weapons would (in theory) be exausted to the point the guards should not be in that healthy (physical & mechanical) health?
Your point is well taken but it's not conclusive proof they're tied to a working government. We've seen groups with less resources at the old folks home, the farm, Woodbury and the prison (rick's crew until recently) survive and in a manner thrive. No reason to assume the guard unit, trained to survive in a hostile situation couldn't do at least as well as a bunch of civilians.
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Old October 26 2013, 08:03 PM   #280
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

sojourner wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
with them clearly having known about the virus before it was even unleashed,
Wait, what?
I think there was a line somewhere in the CDC about this having been going on for a while, it had just recently gone pandemic.

Whatever happened happened pretty quickly. Our guide to this is the flower vase Shane brings Rick in the hospital while Rick is in a coma. They're new and fresh when Shane delivers them and they're dry and severely wilted when Rick wakes up from his coma in the vacant hospital. We're shown a flashback at one point of Shane trying to get Rick out of the hospital with no luck, the flowers look fairly intact here.

Giving the show all of the leeway we possibly can we'll say a month passes between Shane bringing the flowers to the hospital and Rick waking up in the abandoned hospital after the ZA has taken hold. When Shane tries to get Rick we can see that society is quickly crumbling and we later see in a flashback Shane, Lori and Carl stuck on a highway outside Atlanta when there's still "some" military action. They're stuck on the highway next to Carol, her husband and Sophia. We can assume after we see Atlanta bombed they nix the idea to go there and start to form a camp relatively nearby. (I can't recall if we see on the highway Dale's RV or T-Dog's church bus.)

Here's the big thing... Being as "fair" as possible it's unlikely more than a week passed between the hospital losing power and Rick waking up. The IV drip couldn't have lasted for more than a day after which his body would run on its own stored fat and water. In very extreme circumstances people have gone as long as a week without water and we do see that Rick is very parched when he wakes up.

Inside that week Shane formed the camp outside Atlanta, society crumbled even more, and Shane and Lori formed more of a bond and a slight romance. (We'll assume that when they had sex in the second episode this is the first, and only, time they ever did it.)

In short it seems things went downhill fast considering everything that happened likely happened within a month. We know it was a fairly short times as certain things are still working, like the backup water heaters at the police station, and going back those flowers on Rick's nightstand. Some stores and such don't seem too badly looted. (Although that's still mostly the case over a year later.) And the camp outside Atlanta has only been established for maybe a week. (Or however long you want to believe Rick was in the hospital between Shane leaving and him waking up. Again, laying on a bed exerting no energy dehydration wouldn't take hold too quickly and people have gone a week or more without drinking water in more extreme survival situations.)

As for the military, I believe the squadron The Governor ambushes were just reservists probably just doing their 2-week stint when things crashed, they didn't seem too organized all things considered nor too well trained considering how "easily" they were ambushed by The Governor and his men.

I still doubt unless we see clearer evidence otherwise any meaningful form of government still exists. If it did you'd think the Emergency Broadcast Service would be being used as well as many other means of communicating with and helping the public. Hell we've not seen so much as a banner-plane flying over them even Carol mentions that she'd "give anything" for a plane to fly overhead just to have a sense that things are still somewhat normal.

Society and government are gone. It would be nice to see the show explore this issue more, or the spin off if it happens, and I think if what I heard about the plans for this season are true that "might" happen.
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Old October 26 2013, 08:04 PM   #281
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Very interesting discussion. Still, I feel like you guys are overestimating the human survival rate. The virus attacks humanity, it's only a handful who have some kind of mutant defense against it, and even they are not immune once they go comatose or dead.

The virus could have a three generation gestation for all anyone knows. Plenty of time to infect every human on the planet. Like a time bomb.

In other words - being in a bunker might not be any protection whatsoever from the maturation of the virus. The story appears to me to be centered around the simple fact that for every 5000 (?) people, only one survives. And that's just fanwank, there's no actual canonical formula.

You don't organize around that ratio, you survive it alone. I feel like the whole thematic point to the series is that the world has turned and that includes institutions, organizations, internet, telecommunications, everything of the modern age is taken away and the survivors are living in a wasteland.

The survivors are not immune, either.

Also, I believe the CDC episode addressed the "hope for government rescue" option. It doesn't seem to be a very viable hope. I'm looking forward to see where the series takes the story.


Here's a question: at what point do the zombies just rot apart? Or are they making fresh ones? If the majority turned at the same time - are they increasingly decomposing as the series goes on?

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Old October 26 2013, 08:17 PM   #282
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Here's a question: at what point do the zombies just rot apart? Or are they making fresh ones? If the majority turned at the same time - are they increasingly decomposing as the series goes on?
Every time somebody dies and they're not put down with a headshot they become a zombie. Therefore it's obvious that new zombies are being made every day in not insignificant numbers.

And yes zombies rot and decompose though at a slower rate than a dead body would do if they weren't reanimated. Whenever somebody turns they're still fairly " fresh" looking. Other zombies are more decomposed. Two significant examples of more rotted zombies would be the bicycle girl from the first episode and the zombie in Hershels well.

There's also some evidence that of a zombie were trapped under certain conditions the body could desiccate and the zombie wouldn't move and would be effectively truly dead. I am thinking of the mummified corpses in some of the motor vehicles that we've seen. If everyone dies turns all those dead bodies should've been zombies. I could be wrong but it seems as if the only dead bodies we've seen that didn't reanimate and didn't have head wounds were the ones in the motor vehicles trapped with no water no moisture in glass boxes becoming affectively mummified
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Old October 26 2013, 08:20 PM   #283
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Yeah like "starving to death" it would seem decomposition is greatly slowed.
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Old October 26 2013, 08:33 PM   #284
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Skully wrote: View Post
Also, I believe the CDC episode addressed the "hope for government rescue" option. It doesn't seem to be a very viable hope. I'm looking forward to see where the series takes the story.
It also addressed the "what about the rest of the world" question, when Jenner mentions the other groups working on this and says that the French lasted the longest.
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Old October 26 2013, 10:34 PM   #285
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

the G-man wrote: View Post
Here's a question: at what point do the zombies just rot apart? Or are they making fresh ones? If the majority turned at the same time - are they increasingly decomposing as the series goes on?
Every time somebody dies and they're not put down with a headshot they become a zombie. Therefore it's obvious that new zombies are being made every day in not insignificant numbers.
I'm talking about the great mass of zombies, not the ones from the fraction of survivor-made zombies.

In other words, doesn't it seem like each season should portray zombies in increasingly decomposed states? Overall, I mean, not anecdotal individuals. Since most of the zombies came from the Turning Point - wouldn't the first season have more fresh zombies on average? In other words - really, isn't the zombie apocalypse a self-correcting problem on the grand scale?

Survivor zombies notwithstanding. Go hold up in Alaska for a decade, then return south and what do you find? Just the odd zombie remaining from the fraction of survivors in the years after the Turning Point.

For example, if this show were still on 10 years from now - the Original Zombies' flesh would fall off their own bones by then. Except for the handwavium factors in the service of storytelling.

I confess I haven't paid close attention to their average decomposition rate as the seasons progress. Also, who cares.
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