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Old March 17 2014, 10:17 PM   #1876
shivkala
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

She had the same mentality suicide cultists have, in other words, she felt that death was a transition to something else. Most people are (rightly) afraid of transforming into a walker, but Lizzie seemed excited by the idea (though, except for the walker on the track, not enough to off herself).
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Old March 17 2014, 10:49 PM   #1877
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Tyreese forgiving her for the very reason she was (unjustifiably) banished gave her a hope that someone finally understands how things must work in the ZA world.
The odd thing here is that both Lizzie and Carol share the same sort of being exiled. Lizzie's was a death sentence, but I think it fit her crime. Carol's case was more morally questionable, so her fate was only exile. So both Rick and Carol were then in positions of what to do with people considered disruptive to the current situation. In essence, Carol had to do what Rick had to do to her. (Conversely, Rick made an executive decision to exile her while she made an executive decision to kill two people, so they both weren't thinking clearly there).

And Tyreese seemed like he was on the verge of doing something bad to Carol, but he showed restraint because of the situation with the girls. Had he found out about Carol while he was at the prison, there was a good chance he would not have restrained himself. He didn't have that experience yet to help temper his decisions. So even if Rick's exiling her was wrong (in that present context, it was not), he may have saved her life. Carol seemed to understand Rick's decision when being exiled, and she also thought that Tyreese was going to want to kill her when finding out. She understands that what she did wasn't exactly the right thing to do, but just what she thought needed to be done (although she was wrong).

It will be interesting to see if/when Carol and Rick meet up again how that might play out. I'm guessing that again because of the circumstances, Rick will forgive her too. But like Tyreese said, it won't be forgotten.
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Old March 17 2014, 11:34 PM   #1878
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

So yeah, that played out pretty much exactly as I expected. Definitely better telegraphed than in the comics, since Billy and Ben had zero personality, so when it happened, it was completely out of left field.

Did anyone else get major Fallout vibes from the episode's opening scene? The music plus the slowly panning camera, that can't have been a coincidence. Someone's on the staff's a fan, I tells ya!

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Old March 17 2014, 11:35 PM   #1879
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Ryan8bit, while Tyreese will not forget, he was part of the decision to kill Lizzie, so he should not "keep one eye open" (so to speak), or be suspicious around Carol, since he now knows what it means to take action that will save lives. The problem with a man like Rick is that he's still thinking like all laws from the pre-ZA still apply...at least where others are concerned.

Remember, he was willing to hand Michonne over to the Governor, knowing that was a death sentence, only to protect his own interests. At least Carol was dealing with a genuine threat to the entire prison community (if allowed to turn / get loose), as opposed to Rick, who tried to place a non-threat's head on the chopping block.

He seems to be a "do as I say, not as I do" man, which is why Carol has the moral high ground between the two. Even in the Lizzie case, Carol was protecting humanity...not just her own interests from a local psycho in Rick's case (whether that was Shane or the Governor). She was/is seeing the bigger picture, and protecting as many lives as possible. If she reunites with Rick, and he still takes a stand against her, then he's totally divorced from rationality.
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Old March 17 2014, 11:48 PM   #1880
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

shivkala wrote: View Post
She had the same mentality suicide cultists have, in other words, she felt that death was a transition to something else. Most people are (rightly) afraid of transforming into a walker, but Lizzie seemed excited by the idea (though, except for the walker on the track, not enough to off herself).
I'm not so sure. The way I see it, if that were the case then she would have slit her own throat to prove her point, not her sister's. Clearly, she was still afraid of making the "transition" herself. On some level she knew she needed to be alive to be able to see Carol convinced by her demonstration and validate her belief.

She's more like the cult leader who only sort of buys into the hocus pocus and encourages everyone else to off themselves first, while they're still trying to convince themselves.


As for the Fallout thing; I took it as a direct reference.
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Old March 17 2014, 11:56 PM   #1881
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Remember, he was willing to hand Michonne over to the Governor, knowing that was a death sentence, only to protect his own interests. At least Carol was dealing with a genuine threat to the entire prison community (if allowed to turn / get loose), as opposed to Rick, who tried to place a non-threat's head on the chopping block.
While I agree that Rick has been somewhat hypocritical and caring largely about just his group's interests, I don't agree with the above.

He seriously questioned the handing over of Michonne, enough so that he ended up discussing it with others to try and dissuade himself from doing it. There was a lot of internal moral conflict that we saw there, and we don't get that from Carol until after she killed Karen and David. She was a little bit more impulsive where Rick gave things a lot more thought. Both methods have their drawbacks, and the two aren't strictly impulsive or reserved.

I disagree that either of them has any kind of moral high ground or that Carol's interests extend much further beyond her group.
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Old March 17 2014, 11:58 PM   #1882
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Wow, that is a strong contender for my favorite TWD episode of all time. I don't have a list, so who knows where it would really rank, but it is unquestionably up there.

Brilliant episode, and they were really left with no choice regarding Lizzie. Leaving her to the walkers or starvation would have been cruel and inhumane. Let alone the chance that she might survive and kill other survivors who might find her.


Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
And Tyreese seemed like he was on the verge of doing something bad to Carol, but he showed restraint because of the situation with the girls. Had he found out about Carol while he was at the prison, there was a good chance he would not have restrained himself.
We'll never know how Tyrese would have reacted had he found out at a different time (though there's certainly still a chance he'd end up at forgiveness, because her eally has been portrayed as a stand-up guy). But imaginary situations aside, for me Carol really earned her forgiveness in this episode. I've been "against" Carol since she killed 2 innocent people at the prison, but her actions last night were so strong, performing the most insanely difficult of impossible tasks imaginable, that she earned a bit of a free pass on anything else.

As for Rick's reaction to meeting up with Carol again, I would imagine that he would be more than fine with following Tyrese's lead. If Tyrese says "we're good", that should be enough for Rick and everyone else. Not to mention the fact that she'll be holding Judith when Rick sees her. So I expect the very definition of "welcoming her back with open arms".
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Old March 17 2014, 11:59 PM   #1883
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Noname Given wrote: View Post
IMO - very well written episode, but VERY f**ked up situation. I really hope the two child actresses have good heads on their shoulders because (and yes, it may be because I'm a lot older now myself) that's very adult/intense/complex subject matter, and not something I'd want to expose a young person to; even as a fantasy.)

I thought from a story and character perspective it was well presented and handled, but still - REALLY f**ked up.
They seemed pretty level headed on Talking Dead.
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Old March 18 2014, 12:02 AM   #1884
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

The leader would be a better analogy, as I meant more the belief that death is a transition to something else (usually better). However, as you point out, Lizzie was not willing to go through that transition herself, for the most part, except when she was near the railway walker.

I wonder if Mika's death was at least in part due to her stopping Lizzie from letting the Walker bite her. Maybe Lizzie felt brave enough at that moment and could not summon the courage. Or maybe, while she knows any death will cause it, Lizzie herself wanted to die by walker bite/infection and was hoping Mika would bite her after she turned.

Since the comic is something else, entirely, it's times like these I wish The Walking Dead had more related media. I know about the video game, but I think there is so much potential in the characters, it would be interesting to see Lizzie and Mika prior to this season. Was Lizzie always like this, or was it a result of the zombie apocalypse and something as traumatic as seeing her mother die/turn? We get the sense that she's this way when we first meet her and her father's death only seems to exacerbate it. What made these two girls the way they were?
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Old March 18 2014, 12:05 AM   #1885
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

There is a part of me that felt Lizzie should have been allowed to turn--no head shot as I expect. She would have been less a threat to other passers by---but on the off chance she was actually on to something--left in the house.

It seems to be what she always wanted. I think she misunderstood what carol was saying to her at the table, about changing. Her mind was that different.

I think the fire may have been from the still...
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Old March 18 2014, 12:14 AM   #1886
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Unless we get a different explanation for the fire in the next 2 episodes, I think we have to assume that the fire was the one Daryl and Beth set.
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Old March 18 2014, 12:27 AM   #1887
selina
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

^ But where would all the Walkers come from? They looked really burned. I assumed that they must have been in the fire (maybe when they were still alive).
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Old March 18 2014, 12:46 AM   #1888
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

They were attracted by the fire, then once it went out they moved on.
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Old March 18 2014, 01:41 AM   #1889
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

publiusr wrote: View Post
There is a part of me that felt Lizzie should have been allowed to turn--no head shot as I expect. She would have been less a threat to other passers by---but on the off chance she was actually on to something--left in the house.

It seems to be what she always wanted. I think she misunderstood what carol was saying to her at the table, about changing. Her mind was that different.

I think the fire may have been from the still...
If she wanted to turn into a walker, why did she run away from the crispy critters and why did she appear afraid of the walker who dived out of the house when she was holding Judith? When they were discussing heading to Terminus she asked if there would be other kids there. She called that walker she was "playing" with her friend. She was a kid with a kid's simple viewpoint and needs. AND a killer inclination, unfortunately.
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Old March 18 2014, 02:19 AM   #1890
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Re: The Walking Dead Season 4

Stiletto wrote: View Post
Maybe I'm a heartless bastard or something, but I don't understand why TWD has in several occasions NOT killed/stopped random zombies? Sure, I understand that they left the ones outside the prison to stumble around as a bit of camouflage, but why not go back and kill that zombie collapsed on the track in this episode? They were once people, and now they are not. They are a menace to anyone coming across them. Carl not killing one led (although not his fault) to Dale getting killed.
Carl's situation in that episode was an individual growing pains kind of thing

I think the premise is that they spare walkers on a general basis, because it is a chore to slaughter them, a chore on their spirit, to day after day slaughter what are essentially people

You can't kill them all one by one. Why would you ever want to even try? It saves a little sanity to let them slide once in a while. Let it go, unless it matters in some way. At least that's how I'm taking it
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