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Old May 17 2013, 06:45 PM   #31
Shawnster
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

What is an "imperial democracy" and how is it different than some other democracy?
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Old May 17 2013, 08:42 PM   #32
jayrath
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
[
So the US was not a democracy/constitutional republic during the Vietnam War?
That, and subsequent examples of U.S. imperialism are what you really want to know about, right? I got it immediately, right from the first post.

I suggest you look up the Spanish-American War and our involvement with the Philippines before worrying too much about the Trekverse. That's where it began. Mark Twain protested it very, very loudly at the time:

"[FONT=Arial]You ask me about what is called imperialism. Well, I have formed views about that question. I am at the disadvantage of not knowing whether our people are for or against spreading themselves over the face of the globe. I should be sorry if they are, for I don't think that it is wise or a necessary development. As to China, I quite approve of our Government's action in getting free of that complication. They are withdrawing, I understand, having done what they wanted. That is quite right. We have no more business in China than in any other country that is not ours. There is the case of the Philippines. I have tried hard, and yet I cannot for the life of me comprehend how we got into that mess. Perhaps we could not have avoided it -- perhaps it was inevitable that we should come to be fighting the natives of those islands -- but I cannot understand it, and have never been able to get at the bottom of the origin of our antagonism to the natives. I thought we should act as their protector -- not try to get them under our heel. We were to relieve them from Spanish tyranny to enable them to set up a government of their own, and we were to stand by and see that it got a fair trial. It was not to be a government according to our ideas, but a government that represented the feeling of the majority of the Filipinos, a government according to Filipino ideas. That would have been a worthy mission for the United States. But now -- why, we have got into a mess, a quagmire from which each fresh step renders the difficulty of extrication immensely greater. I'm sure I wish I could see what we were getting out of it, and all it means to us as a nation."[/FONT]

Sound familiar?
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Old May 17 2013, 08:50 PM   #33
MacLeod
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
America, Britain, etc, are not democracies. They are republics.
A republic doesn't have a monarch, that's a defining condition of republics.

America's system of government in particular was set up to prevent a democracy, as democracies invariably turn to the tyranny by the many. A representative, however, can say no to their constituents, if the representative feels that what the people want is wrong. That may come back to bite them in the rear, true, but often the worst impulses are just that, impulses, and the issue dies down.
That's what most of the world knows as "representative democracy." Whether exercised directly or through elected representatives, the authority of the state is vested in the people (dêmos), not in the person of a sovereign.

Sci wrote: View Post
I hear this ridiculous claim every now and then and always wonder where it comes from [...]
IMO it comes from those who worry about political power in the hands of the "wrong sort" of people.
You beat me to it, with the phrasing "Representive democracies"

For example the UK whilst being a representive democracy is a constitutional Monarchy.
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Old May 18 2013, 09:45 AM   #34
Sci
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

jayrath wrote: View Post
Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
[
So the US was not a democracy/constitutional republic during the Vietnam War?
That, and subsequent examples of U.S. imperialism are what you really want to know about, right? I got it immediately, right from the first post.

I suggest you look up the Spanish-American War and our involvement with the Philippines before worrying too much about the Trekverse. That's where it began. Mark Twain protested it very, very loudly at the time:

"[FONT=Arial]You ask me about what is called imperialism. Well, I have formed views about that question. I am at the disadvantage of not knowing whether our people are for or against spreading themselves over the face of the globe. I should be sorry if they are, for I don't think that it is wise or a necessary development. As to China, I quite approve of our Government's action in getting free of that complication. They are withdrawing, I understand, having done what they wanted. That is quite right. We have no more business in China than in any other country that is not ours. There is the case of the Philippines. I have tried hard, and yet I cannot for the life of me comprehend how we got into that mess. Perhaps we could not have avoided it -- perhaps it was inevitable that we should come to be fighting the natives of those islands -- but I cannot understand it, and have never been able to get at the bottom of the origin of our antagonism to the natives. I thought we should act as their protector -- not try to get them under our heel. We were to relieve them from Spanish tyranny to enable them to set up a government of their own, and we were to stand by and see that it got a fair trial. It was not to be a government according to our ideas, but a government that represented the feeling of the majority of the Filipinos, a government according to Filipino ideas. That would have been a worthy mission for the United States. But now -- why, we have got into a mess, a quagmire from which each fresh step renders the difficulty of extrication immensely greater. I'm sure I wish I could see what we were getting out of it, and all it means to us as a nation."[/FONT]

Sound familiar?
Very familiar. Though, really, the roots of U.S. imperialism go all the way back to Jamestown and Plymouth Rock -- let's not forget that the United States is the product of a project to systematically seize control of Central North America from its native inhabitants for peoples of European descent.
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Old May 18 2013, 10:14 AM   #35
Gov Kodos
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Sci wrote: View Post
jayrath wrote: View Post
Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
[
So the US was not a democracy/constitutional republic during the Vietnam War?
That, and subsequent examples of U.S. imperialism are what you really want to know about, right? I got it immediately, right from the first post.

I suggest you look up the Spanish-American War and our involvement with the Philippines before worrying too much about the Trekverse. That's where it began. Mark Twain protested it very, very loudly at the time:

"[FONT=Arial]You ask me about what is called imperialism. Well, I have formed views about that question. I am at the disadvantage of not knowing whether our people are for or against spreading themselves over the face of the globe. I should be sorry if they are, for I don't think that it is wise or a necessary development. As to China, I quite approve of our Government's action in getting free of that complication. They are withdrawing, I understand, having done what they wanted. That is quite right. We have no more business in China than in any other country that is not ours. There is the case of the Philippines. I have tried hard, and yet I cannot for the life of me comprehend how we got into that mess. Perhaps we could not have avoided it -- perhaps it was inevitable that we should come to be fighting the natives of those islands -- but I cannot understand it, and have never been able to get at the bottom of the origin of our antagonism to the natives. I thought we should act as their protector -- not try to get them under our heel. We were to relieve them from Spanish tyranny to enable them to set up a government of their own, and we were to stand by and see that it got a fair trial. It was not to be a government according to our ideas, but a government that represented the feeling of the majority of the Filipinos, a government according to Filipino ideas. That would have been a worthy mission for the United States. But now -- why, we have got into a mess, a quagmire from which each fresh step renders the difficulty of extrication immensely greater. I'm sure I wish I could see what we were getting out of it, and all it means to us as a nation."[/FONT]

Sound familiar?
Very familiar. Though, really, the roots of U.S. imperialism go all the way back to Jamestown and Plymouth Rock -- let's not forget that the United States is the product of a project to systematically seize control of Central North America from its native inhabitants for peoples of European descent.
Feeling better with the self-flagellation?
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Old May 18 2013, 10:48 AM   #36
Sci
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
jayrath wrote: View Post
<SNIP>
Sound familiar?
Very familiar. Though, really, the roots of U.S. imperialism go all the way back to Jamestown and Plymouth Rock -- let's not forget that the United States is the product of a project to systematically seize control of Central North America from its native inhabitants for peoples of European descent.
Feeling better with the self-flagellation?
I have engaged in no such thing. Being willing to acknowledge the bad things your country has done just means you're creating space to improve it; it does not mean you are punishing yourself. You can't self-flagellate if you feel no guilt for it.

But this kind of reaction brings to mind an interesting facet of American political culture -- a tendency many people have to feel as though any criticism of the circumstances of the U.S.'s founding and early policies is necessarily an attack on the U.S.'s legitimacy, on its right to even exist. It's a perplexing reaction; I suspect few Englishmen feel that England's right to exist is threatened if someone condemns the practices of the Anglo-Saxons towards the Celts, for instance.

To bring this back to the original topic, I suspect that this reaction is itself a function of imperialism's presence in a nominally democratic system. If you feel yourself a stakeholder in the state, it stands to reason that you may feel as though you bear some responsibility if the state engages in imperial policy, even if those policies were undertaken before your birth. In such an instance, I imagine one either feels guilt, or attempts to deny the immoral nature of imperial policy in order to avoid feeling guilt.
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Old May 18 2013, 11:14 AM   #37
Timo
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

self-flagellation
It is hilarious to think that some people actually believe a nation from date X to be related to a nation from date Y the way a person from date X is related to the same person from date Y. Nations are vague constructs that aren't meaningfully held together even with sets of written laws: they flip-flop with circumstance, the coming and going of their constituent people, and so forth. Sure, there may be a legal obligation for a nation that carries from date X to Y (in theory, because nations are generally above laws due to lack of suitable means of enforcing), but to see a moral obligation there is just plain funny.

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Old May 18 2013, 11:22 AM   #38
Gov Kodos
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Sci wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

Very familiar. Though, really, the roots of U.S. imperialism go all the way back to Jamestown and Plymouth Rock -- let's not forget that the United States is the product of a project to systematically seize control of Central North America from its native inhabitants for peoples of European descent.
Feeling better with the self-flagellation?
I have engaged in no such thing. Being willing to acknowledge the bad things your country has done just means you're creating space to improve it; it does not mean you are punishing yourself. You can't self-flagellate if you feel no guilt for it.

But this kind of reaction brings to mind an interesting facet of American political culture -- a tendency many people have to feel as though any criticism of the circumstances of the U.S.'s founding and early policies is necessarily an attack on the U.S.'s legitimacy, on its right to even exist. It's a perplexing reaction; I suspect few Englishmen feel that England's right to exist is threatened if someone condemns the practices of the Anglo-Saxons towards the Celts, for instance.

To bring this back to the original topic, I suspect that this reaction is itself a function of imperialism's presence in a nominally democratic system. If you feel yourself a stakeholder in the state, it stands to reason that you may feel as though you bear some responsibility if the state engages in imperial policy, even if those policies were undertaken before your birth. In such an instance, I imagine one either feels guilt, or attempts to deny the immoral nature of imperial policy in order to avoid feeling guilt.
I expect you'd have a great career in the Catholic Church. They pander that mea culpa original sin thing, too.
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Old May 18 2013, 12:43 PM   #39
T'Girl
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Sci wrote: View Post
... the roots of U.S. imperialism go all the way back to Jamestown and Plymouth Rock -- let's not forget that the United States is the product of a project to systematically seize control of Central North America from its native inhabitants for peoples of European descent.
Except that wasn't the "project." Europeans didn't come to North and South America with the primary goal of taking the continents away from someone else. They wanted the land and resources on the continents yes, but the fact that there was a indigenous population was irrelevant. Were there to have been no natives present, the Europeans still would have come.

European #1: "There's no one here to subjugate."
European #2: "Damn, well let's go home then".

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Old May 18 2013, 05:52 PM   #40
Lt. Cheka Wey
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Shawnster wrote: View Post
What is an "imperial democracy" and how is it different than some other democracy?
They are either occupying other people's land or they are maintaining an informal empire/hegemony..
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Old May 18 2013, 06:26 PM   #41
Sci
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Feeling better with the self-flagellation?
I have engaged in no such thing. Being willing to acknowledge the bad things your country has done just means you're creating space to improve it; it does not mean you are punishing yourself. You can't self-flagellate if you feel no guilt for it.

But this kind of reaction brings to mind an interesting facet of American political culture -- a tendency many people have to feel as though any criticism of the circumstances of the U.S.'s founding and early policies is necessarily an attack on the U.S.'s legitimacy, on its right to even exist. It's a perplexing reaction; I suspect few Englishmen feel that England's right to exist is threatened if someone condemns the practices of the Anglo-Saxons towards the Celts, for instance.

To bring this back to the original topic, I suspect that this reaction is itself a function of imperialism's presence in a nominally democratic system. If you feel yourself a stakeholder in the state, it stands to reason that you may feel as though you bear some responsibility if the state engages in imperial policy, even if those policies were undertaken before your birth. In such an instance, I imagine one either feels guilt, or attempts to deny the immoral nature of imperial policy in order to avoid feeling guilt.
I expect you'd have a great career in the Catholic Church. They pander that mea culpa original sin thing, too.
You can only do a mea culpa if it's you-a that's culpa.

If you stop identifying yourself with every ridiculous thing previous generations did, you might find that there's a lot less reason to feel guilty -- and a lot more reason to recognize and proclaim when previous generations did terrible things.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
... the roots of U.S. imperialism go all the way back to Jamestown and Plymouth Rock -- let's not forget that the United States is the product of a project to systematically seize control of Central North America from its native inhabitants for peoples of European descent.
Except that wasn't the "project." Europeans didn't come to North and South America with the primary goal of taking the continents away from someone else. They wanted the land and resources on the continents yes, but the fact that there was a indigenous population was irrelevant. Were there to have been no natives present, the Europeans still would have come.

European #1: "There's no one here to subjugate."
European #2: "Damn, well let's go home then".

Burglar: "I didn't engage in a systematic project to break into someone else's home and rob them of their diamonds. My primary goal was just to have the diamonds; the fact that those things had prior owners was irrelevant! Were there to have been no prior owners, I would still have come and taken the diamonds!"

Europeans, and, later, European descendants, knew that the North and South America had native inhabitants, and they engaged in a systematic project to seize that land from its owners. Period. There is no way to spin this.
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Old May 18 2013, 10:38 PM   #42
Albert Arthur
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

T'Girl wrote: View Post

European #1: "There's no one here to subjugate."
European #2: "Damn, well let's go home then".

Very good point, but not one that liberals will accept.
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Old May 18 2013, 10:44 PM   #43
Albert Arthur
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Sci wrote: View Post

Burglar: "I didn't engage in a systematic project to break into someone else's home and rob them of their diamonds. My primary goal was just to have the diamonds; the fact that those things had prior owners was irrelevant! Were there to have been no prior owners, I would still have come and taken the diamonds!"

Europeans, and, later, European descendants, knew that the North and South America had native inhabitants, and they engaged in a systematic project to seize that land from its owners. Period. There is no way to spin this.
Poppycock. Europeans didn't "steal" the land any more than half the Indians who were living here in 1600 had stolen the land from the other Indians who lived here previously. There have been mass immigrations throughout history. Invariably, there is armed conflict as a result. One side wins, the other loses. The Indians were innocent bystanders. They fought a 200 year war and lost. It's not like they were doomed to lose, either. The German tribes sacked Rome, after all. Get a grip on your anti-Americanism, Sci. Grow up!
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Old May 18 2013, 10:48 PM   #44
Gov Kodos
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Sci wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

I have engaged in no such thing. Being willing to acknowledge the bad things your country has done just means you're creating space to improve it; it does not mean you are punishing yourself. You can't self-flagellate if you feel no guilt for it.

But this kind of reaction brings to mind an interesting facet of American political culture -- a tendency many people have to feel as though any criticism of the circumstances of the U.S.'s founding and early policies is necessarily an attack on the U.S.'s legitimacy, on its right to even exist. It's a perplexing reaction; I suspect few Englishmen feel that England's right to exist is threatened if someone condemns the practices of the Anglo-Saxons towards the Celts, for instance.

To bring this back to the original topic, I suspect that this reaction is itself a function of imperialism's presence in a nominally democratic system. If you feel yourself a stakeholder in the state, it stands to reason that you may feel as though you bear some responsibility if the state engages in imperial policy, even if those policies were undertaken before your birth. In such an instance, I imagine one either feels guilt, or attempts to deny the immoral nature of imperial policy in order to avoid feeling guilt.
I expect you'd have a great career in the Catholic Church. They pander that mea culpa original sin thing, too.
You can only do a mea culpa if it's you-a that's culpa.

If you stop identifying yourself with every ridiculous thing previous generations did, you might find that there's a lot less reason to feel guilty -- and a lot more reason to recognize and proclaim when previous generations did terrible things.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
... the roots of U.S. imperialism go all the way back to Jamestown and Plymouth Rock -- let's not forget that the United States is the product of a project to systematically seize control of Central North America from its native inhabitants for peoples of European descent.
Except that wasn't the "project." Europeans didn't come to North and South America with the primary goal of taking the continents away from someone else. They wanted the land and resources on the continents yes, but the fact that there was a indigenous population was irrelevant. Were there to have been no natives present, the Europeans still would have come.

European #1: "There's no one here to subjugate."
European #2: "Damn, well let's go home then".

Burglar: "I didn't engage in a systematic project to break into someone else's home and rob them of their diamonds. My primary goal was just to have the diamonds; the fact that those things had prior owners was irrelevant! Were there to have been no prior owners, I would still have come and taken the diamonds!"

Europeans, and, later, European descendants, knew that the North and South America had native inhabitants, and they engaged in a systematic project to seize that land from its owners. Period. There is no way to spin this.
You do arrogant, self-righteous humility just like a good Catholic.
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Old May 18 2013, 11:14 PM   #45
T'Girl
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Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Sci wrote: View Post
If you stop identifying yourself with every ridiculous thing previous generations did, you might find that there's a lot less reason to feel guilty -- and a lot more reason to recognize and proclaim when previous generations did terrible things.
None of us are responsible for the actions and deeds of our ancestors. We were not there.

Not there to counsel them, condemn them, encourage them, assist them or restrain them.

Sci wrote: View Post
Europeans, and, later, European descendants, knew that the North and South America had native inhabitants, and they engaged in a systematic project to seize that land from its owners. Period. There is no way to spin this.
But this in itself is spin.

Europeans came to the Americas basically to make new lives for themselves, to escape the societies behind them and to find opportunities to succeed and grow. Again, there was never this "grand plan" you speak of.

What happens now Sci? Are you going to tell us of the deliberate "systematic project" on the part of the people in the near east to spread the bubonic plague through-out Europe?



Last edited by T'Girl; May 19 2013 at 06:19 PM.
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