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Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

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Old May 5 2013, 06:26 PM   #16
Melakon
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Re: Were they paid?

Some sort of monetary system is definitely in place.

From TOS: The Apple--

KIRK: Trying to get yourself killed. Do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you?

SPOCK: One hundred twenty two thousand, two hundred--

KIRK: Never mind.
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Old May 5 2013, 06:40 PM   #17
Timo
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Re: Were they paid?

The obvious setup here is that the consumer economy has ceased to use money. Yes, industries still count the pennies so that meals, skyscrapers and starships can be produced and personnel can be trained. But everything is free of cost for the consumer, and no individual person ever gets paid.

That's not particularly different from how things are run today, even. You can be a "consumer" at a school and pay zero pence for your education and get zero pence for homework, for example. Or a soldier who only gets symbolic pay and totally free lunches, until returning to the civilian life. Paying and getting paid is for other people outside your immediate framework, and does not affect your own existence.

It's just that consumer economy today is a fairly large sector of the overall economy, and the various (and numerous) no-salary, charity-labor organizations very much operate within this larger framework. But even in the late 22nd century specified by Paris, consumer economy might have become an utterly insignificant fraction of the overall economy, and nobody would even notice if people stopped paying for food or electronics and stopped getting salaries.

There's no inherent need to have people handle money. That can be left to businesses, corporations, organizations - and totally automated for greater efficacy. Well, there is the aspect of using money to blackmail unwilling people into working, but that is completely dependent on how many people need to work in order to keep the world running for the rest. By the late 22nd century, it might be that only 0.0002% of Earth's population needs to contribute labor in order to keep the planet spinning, and a well-organized IT system will make it trivially easy to get volunteers for all the required jobs.

Say, you need somebody to keep the sewer-cleaning machines working - so you draft a new guy for the job every week, as the work isn't particularly inspiring but isn't particularly demanding, either, and volunteers will line up for such brief, diversionary spells. And you need a brain surgeon - so you draft a dedicated volunteer who just loves being a brain surgeon, because that's what you would have to do in a salary-based system as well, because it takes immense dedication to go through the required studies for that particular job for a potential future financial compensation but current near-starvation.

Basically, money probably did go the way of the dinosaur - it mutated into birds, and now soars high above the consumer, never touching him. Except when dealing with less sophisticated economies, but happily only Starfleet will typically have to get its hands dirty with that sort of thing.

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Old May 5 2013, 06:50 PM   #18
Melakon
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Re: Were they paid?

We have the beginnings of it now. The government qualifies me as permanently disabled. Once a month they do a direct deposit to my bank. In addition to that, I'm covered by Medicare. I rarely carry cash (due to the neighborhood). When I worked during the 80s, I usually had at least $35 on me every day. Now I do most transactions through either bank/credit card, or online payments. The only check I write is for rent. I don't receive rent subsidies or food stamps.
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Old May 5 2013, 06:52 PM   #19
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Re: Were they paid?

jespah wrote: View Post
They traded with spices (Season 3) and with goods. They had to pay the automated repair station (I forget with what). I'd say they were paid, but we didn't see anyone really talking about it.

Perhaps that was a missing Season 5 story - Mayweather Gets Audited.
They traded with spices in S3 because Earth money would have been worthless to an alien living in the expanse.

They paid the automated repair station with 200 liters of warp plasma. Well, not really, seeing at they used the plasma to blow up the station, which subsequently and creepily repaired itself.
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Old May 5 2013, 07:05 PM   #20
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Re: Were they paid?

One would assume that the interstellar community would be accustomed to strange barter deals as the primary form of payment, as local currencies would indeed be worthless. If you got a billion Earth dollars from trustworthy Earthlings as payment for your plasma inducer, you could not know the true value of that sum - sailing to Earth with your billion, you might buy a lump of nickel that satisfactorily compensates for your inducer, but you might also find out Earth values its nickel more than your own culture does and you'd only get a disappointingly tiny amount with the billion (even though you thought you had the rate of the Earth dollar down pat after discussing with the Earthlings how much sodium carbonate you can buy with it). Better to barter directly for the nickel, then.

It would be a system like this that would be in place when the United Federation of Planets was founded. Would moving to a single currency be worth the hassle? Or should barter still be encouraged, as it would also encourage individual planets to retain their self-sustenance and keep the UFP much more robust against internal and external threats, financial or otherwise?

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Old May 5 2013, 07:09 PM   #21
T'Girl
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Re: Were they paid?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
And Enterprise is set mid-22nd century. This magical and never-quite-explained moneyless economy of Gene Roddenberry's supposed utopia didn't exist yet. Were there any references to money on the show? I don't recall any.
In America, we went off the gold standard in the early 1970's, our money currently is backed by the "full faith and credit of United states Government." Pretty much the same story all over the world today. Now according to Commander Riker, immediately following the third world war there were "few governments." So it not to hard to imagine a return to precious metals as money, or as a way of backing currency and electronic funds transfers.

Tom might have been referring to a return to completely fiat money, a century after the war. And possibly the elimination of currency.

Paris: "Fort Knox. The largest repository of gold bullion in Earth's history. Over fifty metric tons worth over nine trillion U.S. dollars ... when the New World Economy took shape in the late twenty second century and money went the way of the dinosaur, Fort Knox was turned into a museum.

Here Tom does seem to be directly tying gold to money, a direct tie that doesn't exist today in the year 2013.

Now what Tom actually meant by "money went the way of the dinosaur" might be something completely different.

Obviously Humans and the Federation were using money in the TOS era and later, which is after the late twenty second century time period Tom mentioned.

****

So, where the officers and crew of the NX-01 being paid, I would yes.

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Old May 7 2013, 05:15 AM   #22
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Re: Were they paid?

Melakon wrote: View Post
The other problem with a moneyless society, is how were people compensated when their cash, property, products, farm goods, and stock certificates suddenly became worthless.
I think those things became worthless in the 21st century when their planet became a nuclear wasteland.

Isn't it possible to be libertarian without being so smugly cynical that we have to complain about the idealism of a TV series based on idealism? Let the series be something to strive to be, not that people can realistically be.

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Old May 7 2013, 06:33 AM   #23
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Re: Were they paid?

I've been accused of many things, but never of being libertarian.
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Old May 7 2013, 07:44 AM   #24
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Re: Were they paid?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
The other problem with a moneyless society, is how were people compensated when their cash, property, products, farm goods, and stock certificates suddenly became worthless.
I think those things became worthless in the 21st century when their planet became a nuclear wasteland.
600 million people died in the third world war, the equivalent of modern America losing 20 million people. But the majority of Humanity survived, so basic infrastructure couldn't have been knocked down too far. Estimates are that by the middle of this century (the time of WWIII) 70% of the population will be living in cities, obviously after the war they were still able to move food around. So we are not exactly talking about "mad max."

Cochrane was able to travel around by train, rail lines pass through cities. The "world war" could have been devastating to select portions of the Earth, but not really world wide. The world wide economy would have taken a hard hit, but could have recovered in decades.

The Vulcan Ambassador in ST: Enterprise said that Vulcans were amazed at how fast Humans recovered.

Isn't it possible to be libertarian without being so smugly cynical that we have to complain about the idealism of a TV series based on idealism?
Except Star Trek isn't based on "idealism," it's based on action-adventure, based on solving whatever that week's (or season's) dilemma is.

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Old May 10 2013, 07:40 PM   #25
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Re: Were they paid?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
From the Voyager episode "Dark Frontier"...

PARIS: When the New World Economy took shape
in the late twenty-second century and money went the way of the dinosaur...

And Enterprise is set mid-22nd century. This magical and never-quite-explained moneyless economy of Gene Roddenberry's supposed utopia didn't exist yet. Were there any references to money on the show? I don't recall any.
I'm doing an ENTERPRISE re-watch on DVD currently. I just finished the Vulcan Trilogy in season four, and so far, there has been no reference to anybody being paid.
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Old May 10 2013, 09:09 PM   #26
Timo
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Re: Were they paid?

The only references anywhere in Trek to a Starfleet employee getting paid are from TOS. In "The Doomsday Machine", Scotty receives a compliment from his CO:

Kirk: "Scotty, you've just earned your pay for the week."
In "Who Mourns for Adonais", it's Chekov who gets the praise:

Kirk: "Mister Chekov, I think you've earned your pay for the week."
The formulaic expression may well be a mere saying in the 23rd century, unrelated to any actual payment. Surely sayings about money will survive money itself by 200-300 years... By Jove, old Roman religions are still going strong almost two thousand years after their factual demise!

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Old May 12 2013, 02:27 PM   #27
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Re: Were they paid?

Melakon wrote: View Post
The other problem with a moneyless society, is how were people compensated when their cash, property, products, farm goods, and stock certificates suddenly became worthless.
Look at it this way. Imagine if energy was free and in abundance (antimatter). Now imagine if it could easily be converted into matter (this is how replicators work). This technology wasn't yet mainstream in mid 22 century, but it's safe to assume that this mysterious "new world economics" was based on this.

Free energy for everyone means also free food, free clothes, free water... And as for housing, industrial replicators take care of that. Homes are practically costless, so we can assume that in the UFP every citizen is entitled to one.

Here ya go. Utopia.

BTW, it's safe to assume that some form of currency still exists (hence the motivation), and it is mostly used for aquisition of "luxuries", like Scotty's famous boat, Admiral Paris' shuttle, or those antique glasses Bones bought Kirk for his birthday.
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Old May 12 2013, 04:41 PM   #28
Timo
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Re: Were they paid?

Of course, if money really was made to disappear (at least from the consumer economy), then it was apparently seen as fundamentally evil somehow. Not just unnecessary, but evil, the same way eugenics is evil nowadays because of Adolf Hitler.

Picard speaks very derisively of wealth, accumulation thereof, and the profit motive (say, in "The Neutral Zone" and "Starship Mine"). A society of Picards probably wouldn't want to compensate people for their "loss", but punish them for having possessed all that worth in the first place. And such a society would be careful never to refer to its currency as "money", when it's easy to invent euphemisms of all sorts...

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Old May 12 2013, 05:04 PM   #29
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Re: Were they paid?

Melakon wrote: View Post
I've been accused of many things, but never of being libertarian.
Have you ever been accused of being a librarian?
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Old May 12 2013, 06:17 PM   #30
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Re: Were they paid?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
From the Voyager episode "Dark Frontier"...

PARIS: When the New World Economy took shape
in the late twenty-second century and money went the way of the dinosaur...

And Enterprise is set mid-22nd century. This magical and never-quite-explained moneyless economy of Gene Roddenberry's supposed utopia didn't exist yet. Were there any references to money on the show? I don't recall any.
Fortunantly the show was set in the mid-22nd century not the late.
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