RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,769
Posts: 5,216,810
Members: 24,218
Currently online: 737
Newest member: momogila

TrekToday headlines

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

New X-Men: Days of Future Past Trailer
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Nimoy to Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone Comic
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

These Are The Voyages TOS Season Two Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

Kirk’s Well Wishes To Kirk
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Quinto In New Starz Series
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Star Trek: Horizon Film
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14

Star Trek: Fleet Captains Game Expansion
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 11 2013, 12:25 AM   #91
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Gallifrey Falls
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

I am not Spock wrote: View Post
It's a total reboot.
It's not. Spock Prime is the same Spock we followed through TOS, the first six movies, and Unification. You may allege that this was done to placate some people. It doesn't matter. In-universe it is true regardless of any out-of-universe reason for doing it.

beamMe wrote:
Both Nero and Spock were already caught in the black hole and thus protected from the changes that occurred when the Narada went back first.
We know Nero went into the black hole before Spock. To explain why Spock went into the alternate timeline created by Nero as opposed to a completely separate one, I think we could call it a property of red matter black holes if we so desired. ( Nero, on the other hand, does not need to be protected from the changes caused by himself, just as the Borg ship did not need to be. ) But how is Spock, as someone momentarily not yet in the black hole when Nero enters, "protected" from changes to the timeline? The same way everyone else in the Prime universe, including Picard and LaForge, is "protected" at that point: it's not single-timeline travel. The universe doesn't change as soon as the time traveler departs, to reflect the results of the time travel; rather, the time traveler disappears, never to be seen again, and the rest of the universe remains as it was.

But this is all ancillary to the point: Data's head being in the cave does not depend on how events play out in the future of the Abramsverse continuity, because it was already there when the timelines diverged. The Narada went back to a point in the Prime timeline in the middle of a period during which we know it was there.
__________________
"In the future... do I make it?"
"No."

Last edited by Set Harth; May 11 2013 at 12:51 AM.
Set Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 01:16 AM   #92
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Your last paragraph is, again, predicated on the theory that the timeline "branched" as opposed to having existed the whole...well, time.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 02:22 AM   #93
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
The idea that this is an alternate universe split off because of Nero is a fig leaf. Even if the writers were paying real careful attention to make sure that all events line up - and they clearly aren't - the visual artists, director and so on are willing to play fast and loose with so many things that nuTrek is pretty obviously a reboot.
Exactly. It's a reboot which refuses to be honest about it.

But then again -- let's be honest -- so were the TOS movies. And TNG along with the other Berman-era spinoffs.
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 03:10 AM   #94
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

King Daniel wrote: View Post
IRL it's a reboot, but it ties into the old at least as well as any of the other series' and movies (which is to say, a LOT of willing suspension of disbelief is required)
Assuming that transporters, warp drive, recast actors, replicators and a money-less society require no suspension of disbelief.

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
It's a reboot which refuses to be honest about it.
It was the perfect way to reboot it. A reboot we can choose to embrace or reject.

Kruezerman wrote: View Post
Exactly, this has happened before, and nobody complained, and yet the new guy walks in with a new direction and all of a sudden it's INSANITY.
Of course people complained. Check out the fan rants (and accolades) about the many changes in ST:TMP in early volumes of "The Best of Trek".

"Who are these... Munchkins?"
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 10:23 AM   #95
bryce
Commodore
 
bryce's Avatar
 
Location: bryce
View bryce's Twitter Profile Send a message via Yahoo to bryce
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

DonIago wrote: View Post
The Data's Head resolution really depends on whether you believe that the '09 timeline "branched" off the existing one, or whether you believe that that timeline was always running in parallel to the Prime timeline and Nero and Spock just jumped tracks.
No there is a *third* option: the timeline(s) branched off, not like a "Y" shape, (or existed in parallel, like an "H" shape, with the cross line being the wormhole) - but the timeline branched in an "X" shape, when Nero appeared.

In the Star Trek...multiverse...time travel is a reality, so Star Trek's past is constantly influencing and affecting and shaping it's future...and vise verse - Trek's future shapes it's past. So when Nero changed the local present, he changed the future...and that reshaped the past. The mechanism for this change is there - it's time travel. in a universe where the laws of physics allows time travel, the laws of cause and effect are very different ... from one where time travel is forbidden: cause and effect can run two ways.

So when Nero changed the future, he changed the past...there isn't necessarily a Data in this new future to leave his head in the past. Or maybe a Data exists, but didn't experence those events. Or there is a Data head in the past...but it's the new timeline's version of Data and his head in the new past. (Just like this new timeline has a version of Archer in it's past...and Spock Prime indicated that this new universe has...a version of fate and destiny...or maybe it's just time's way of trying to "repair" the "damage"...so we still have an Archer and Kirk and probably a version of Picard and Sisko and Janeway too...but their lives won't be quite the same.)

And it *has* to be that way...because if Data's head *is* in a cave in the new timeline...then all the other visits to the past from the future of the Prime timeline also exist in the new timeline's past! So effectively, the new timeline has *two* seperate futures! And nuKirk could travel back to when Data's head was left in the cave, and join with the Prime version of Picard, and travel with him "back" into the *Prime future*! And Prime Picard could likewise travel with nuKirk into the new timeline! Which is nonsense.

So no, the new timeline didn't "always" exist (if we think in terms of "meta-time")...it didn't exist until Nero created it...but Nero's actions creatd a new future, in a metaverse where the future can and does effecf the past, so Nero also created a new past too! Since cause and effect are complicated and multidimensional in the Star Trek...over-reality.

Of course, there is a...contradiction here...in a universe where the past and future effect each other dynamically...well, then creating a parallel or alternate timeline shouldn't be possible...but perhaps there is something special or different about time travel involving Red Matter created wormholes. And anyway, the rules - and effects - of time travel in the Trekverse have never been consistent...we have seem time travel in Trek have all soets of different effects...changing the future...erasing it...creating alternate timelines...creating branching timelines which eventually self-correct or self-repair or self-delete, depending on how you look at it. So probably, like the books about the Department of Temporal Investigations imply, there do indees seem to be multiple kinds of time travel in the Trekverse...all with different effects on the timeline, depending.

Last edited by bryce; May 11 2013 at 10:50 AM.
bryce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 11:18 AM   #96
beamMe
Fleet Captain
 
beamMe's Avatar
 
Location: Europa
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

bryce wrote: View Post
... So when Nero changed the local present, he changed the future...and that reshaped the past...
Yes, that's exactly how I see it.

Love your post; you explained it so much better than I did.
beamMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 01:23 PM   #97
BillJ
Admiral
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

For me, Data's head is there. We'll probably get a Trek Lit book featuring it somewhere down the road when they're allowed to start playing in the Abramsverse.
__________________
I'm not popular enough to be different! - Homer Simpson
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 02:05 PM   #98
abaldwin360
Lieutenant
 
abaldwin360's Avatar
 
Location: Louisville, KY
Send a message via AIM to abaldwin360 Send a message via Yahoo to abaldwin360
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

bryce wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
The Data's Head resolution really depends on whether you believe that the '09 timeline "branched" off the existing one, or whether you believe that that timeline was always running in parallel to the Prime timeline and Nero and Spock just jumped tracks.
No there is a *third* option: the timeline(s) branched off, not like a "Y" shape, (or existed in parallel, like an "H" shape, with the cross line being the wormhole) - but the timeline branched in an "X" shape, when Nero appeared.

In the Star Trek...multiverse...time travel is a reality, so Star Trek's past is constantly influencing and affecting and shaping it's future...and vise verse - Trek's future shapes it's past. So when Nero changed the local present, he changed the future...and that reshaped the past. The mechanism for this change is there - it's time travel. in a universe where the laws of physics allows time travel, the laws of cause and effect are very different ... from one where time travel is forbidden: cause and effect can run two ways.

So when Nero changed the future, he changed the past...there isn't necessarily a Data in this new future to leave his head in the past. Or maybe a Data exists, but didn't experence those events. Or there is a Data head in the past...but it's the new timeline's version of Data and his head in the new past. (Just like this new timeline has a version of Archer in it's past...and Spock Prime indicated that this new universe has...a version of fate and destiny...or maybe it's just time's way of trying to "repair" the "damage"...so we still have an Archer and Kirk and probably a version of Picard and Sisko and Janeway too...but their lives won't be quite the same.)

And it *has* to be that way...because if Data's head *is* in a cave in the new timeline...then all the other visits to the past from the future of the Prime timeline also exist in the new timeline's past! So effectively, the new timeline has *two* seperate futures! And nuKirk could travel back to when Data's head was left in the cave, and join with the Prime version of Picard, and travel with him "back" into the *Prime future*! And Prime Picard could likewise travel with nuKirk into the new timeline! Which is nonsense.

So no, the new timeline didn't "always" exist (if we think in terms of "meta-time")...it didn't exist until Nero created it...but Nero's actions creatd a new future, in a metaverse where the future can and does effecf the past, so Nero also created a new past too! Since cause and effect are complicated and multidimensional in the Star Trek...over-reality.

Of course, there is a...contradiction here...in a universe where the past and future effect each other dynamically...well, then creating a parallel or alternate timeline shouldn't be possible...but perhaps there is something special or different about time travel involving Red Matter created wormholes. And anyway, the rules - and effects - of time travel in the Trekverse have never been consistent...we have seem time travel in Trek have all soets of different effects...changing the future...erasing it...creating alternate timelines...creating branching timelines which eventually self-correct or self-repair or self-delete, depending on how you look at it. So probably, like the books about the Department of Temporal Investigations imply, there do indees seem to be multiple kinds of time travel in the Trekverse...all with different effects on the timeline, depending.
Wibbly wobbly timey wimey
abaldwin360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 05:38 PM   #99
Kruezerman
Fleet Captain
 
Kruezerman's Avatar
 
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

THIS THREAD IS GIVING ME A HEADACHE. STAHP.
__________________
The self proclaimed Angry Mexican man of TNZ. You're welcome.
Kruezerman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 06:12 PM   #100
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Gallifrey Falls
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

bryce wrote:
So when Nero changed the future, he changed the past...there isn't necessarily a Data in this new future to leave his head in the past. Or maybe a Data exists, but didn't experence those events. Or there is a Data head in the past...but it's the new timeline's version of Data and his head in the new past.
It really doesn't matter what happens with "nuData". It's Prime Data's head. We don't need a hypothetical future Abramsverse Data to leave his head in the past, because the Prime Data head is already there.

bryce wrote:
Just like this new timeline has a version of Archer in it's past...
That "version of Archer" is the same version seen on Enterprise. It's Prime Archer.

bryce wrote:
So effectively, the new timeline has *two* seperate futures!
Not really. For one thing, as a character in another franchise once said, always in motion is the future. Just because the past of the Prime timeline featured travelers from the TNG future doesn't mean that the TNG future becomes a future of the Abramsverse.
__________________
"In the future... do I make it?"
"No."
Set Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 06:41 PM   #101
beamMe
Fleet Captain
 
beamMe's Avatar
 
Location: Europa
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Set Harth wrote: View Post
bryce wrote:
So when Nero changed the future, he changed the past...there isn't necessarily a Data in this new future to leave his head in the past. Or maybe a Data exists, but didn't experence those events. Or there is a Data head in the past...but it's the new timeline's version of Data and his head in the new past.
It really doesn't matter what happens with "nuData". It's Prime Data's head. We don't need a hypothetical future Abramsverse Data to leave his head in the past, because the Prime Data head is already there.
Let's try a different hypothetical: In City on the Edge of Forever, if the Guardian had been able to send Kirk and Spock just a few minutes into the past, so they could stop McCoy from ever jumping back in time, would McCoy still be present in the 1930 in that new timeline where he's prevented from going back?
beamMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 06:54 PM   #102
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

City would seem to feature at least three timelines-

1) The normal one up to the point where Our Heroes beam down to the planet and never return.

2) The one where McCoy ventured into the past and wasn't stopped.

3) The one where McCoy ventured into the past and was stopped, which is almost indistinguishable from the original timeline.

If the Guardian had sent Our Heroes back just a few minutes, then we'd have-

1) The original timeline.
2) The timeline McCoy altered.
3) The timeline where Our Heroes stop McCoy.

There will always be a timeline where McCoy ventured into the past, it just won't be the one where Our Heroes ultimately end up.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 07:04 PM   #103
beamMe
Fleet Captain
 
beamMe's Avatar
 
Location: Europa
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

DonIago wrote: View Post
City would seem to feature at least three timelines-

1) The normal one up to the point where Our Heroes beam down to the planet and never return.

2) The one where McCoy ventured into the past and wasn't stopped.

3) The one where McCoy ventured into the past and was stopped, which is almost indistinguishable from the original timeline.

If the Guardian had sent Our Heroes back just a few minutes, then we'd have-

1) The original timeline.
2) The timeline McCoy altered.
3) The timeline where Our Heroes stop McCoy.

There will always be a timeline where McCoy ventured into the past, it just won't be the one where Our Heroes ultimately end up.
In number three he doesn't.
And that's the point: If he's prevented from going back into the past, he can't be there anyway just because he was there in another timeline.
beamMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 07:20 PM   #104
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

That's what I'm saying. There will always be a timeline where McCoy ventured into the past, it's just not the one Our Heroes find themselves in at the end if they stop McCoy before he goes through the Guardian. But in a different timeline he did.

The only way there could not be such a timeline would be if McCoy hadn't gone through the Guardian in timeline 1.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 07:29 PM   #105
beamMe
Fleet Captain
 
beamMe's Avatar
 
Location: Europa
Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

DonIago wrote: View Post
That's what I'm saying. There will always be a timeline where McCoy ventured into the past, it's just not the one Our Heroes find themselves in at the end if they stop McCoy before he goes through the Guardian. But in a different timeline he did.

The only way there could not be such a timeline would be if McCoy hadn't gone through the Guardian in timeline 1.
Timey wimey stuff. It's complicated
beamMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:49 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.