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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 26 2013, 12:00 AM   #1036
WarpFactorZ
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

YellowSubmarine wrote: View Post
felt the enormous shockwave from the explosion of 72 experimental torpedoes, make it well into Earth's gravity well in a few minutes (or hours, because unless Sulu also mentions the time, it is also unclear)?
First: there are no shockwaves in space, in the same sense as on Earth (in the atmosphere). Shock waves in space are purely particulate, which means the tiny little pieces of Vengeance that might have hit the Enterprise would have to have been enough to push it. Translation: not likely.

And even if the torpedo onslaught caused the Enterprise to drift in the direction of Earth (totally plausible), it wouldn't have moved it close enough to cause what happened. Additionally, the gravitational field of the Earth doesn't just "turn on" at some distance. It's all gradual, and very weak if you're far away. BAD SCIENCE -> see "The Black Hole".

Second: it all happens in "real time" as we see on the screen. Kirk et al. get beamed back to the ship, the torpedoes explode on the Vengeance (remember, this is a matter of minutes from when they're beamed aboard), and the Enterprise begins to tumble uncontrollably.

gerbil wrote:
If the Enterprise were stationary compared to Earth, there's a good chance it would cease being in freefall and be drawn directly downward.
Not in the time shown on screen. Not by a long shot. You do realize these are very easy things to calculate, so if they had bothered to hire a science consultant (as most sci-fi films do), they could have avoided this nonsense.

FckrSGB wrote:
Put it always amuses me the amount of bullshit science and "speculative fiction" ST fans will buy into,
Again, you don't understand the difference between speculative science fiction and bad science.

Flake wrote:
I bet Einstein would have loved Star Trek Into Darkness
No Einstein here. This is freshman Newtonian physics.

Last edited by WarpFactorZ; August 26 2013 at 12:16 AM.
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Old August 26 2013, 12:15 AM   #1037
Chemahkuu
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Kruezerman wrote: View Post
Spock said that the gravity systems were failing, that could mean they were going haywire, it didn't help that the Enterprise was caught in the gravity field of Earth.
Argh!
The Enterprise is 267,000km from Earth when she drops out of warp, the moon is 384,405km away. The Enterprise is 117,405km closer to the Earth. The pull is stronger.

Don't claim shit science when you didn't even take 10 seconds to find that out.
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Old August 26 2013, 12:22 AM   #1038
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Kruezerman wrote: View Post
Spock said that the gravity systems were failing, that could mean they were going haywire, it didn't help that the Enterprise was caught in the gravity field of Earth.
Argh!
The Enterprise is 267,000km from Earth when she drops out of warp, the moon is 384,405km away. The Enterprise is 117,405km closer to the Earth. The pull is stronger.

Don't claim shit science when you didn't even take 10 seconds to find that out.
And we know from TNG, venting atmosphere will kick a massive ship into moving at a pretty good clip, even if stationary.

And we know from STIII that starships moving at impulse speeds will coast to a stop with comical sound effects when the energy pulls the sparkplugs. Or in STV dropping a photo torpedo onto a massive alien life form will have zero side effects to anyone standing mere meters away; and said alien will survive an antimatter warhead but lower power phasers will smoke that bastard with ease.

Shit Science = Trek Science = Norm.
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Old August 26 2013, 12:23 AM   #1039
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
The Enterprise is 267,000km from Earth when she drops out of warp, the moon is 384,405km away. The Enterprise is 117,405km closer to the Earth. The pull is stronger.

Don't claim shit science when you didn't even take 10 seconds to find that out.
I took less than 10 seconds. I did the calculations. It's not "shit science".

I already said the net field is directed toward the Earth. But it is so small that it is effectively 0.

Field from Earth:

F_e = GM_e/r_e^2 = (6.67e-11)(6e24)/(272e6)^2 = 0.005 N/kg

Field from the Moon:

F_m = -G M_m /r_m^2 - (6.67e-11)(120e8)^2 = -0.0003 N/kg

Net field: basically 0.005 N/kg toward Earth.

So, 0.005 N/kg is non-zero, but not significant.

Never accuse me of "shit science," Herbert.
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Old August 26 2013, 12:26 AM   #1040
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post

Argh!
The Enterprise is 267,000km from Earth when she drops out of warp, the moon is 384,405km away. The Enterprise is 117,405km closer to the Earth. The pull is stronger.

Don't claim shit science when you didn't even take 10 seconds to find that out.
And we know from TNG, venting atmosphere will kick a massive ship into moving at a pretty good clip, even if stationary.

And we know from STIII that starships moving at impulse speeds will coast to a stop with comical sound effects when the energy pulls the sparkplugs. Or in STV dropping a photo torpedo onto a massive alien life form will have zero side effects to anyone standing mere meters away; and said alien will survive an antimatter warhead but lower power phasers will smoke that bastard with ease.

Shit Science = Trek Science = Norm.
Exactly!, the film has the Enterprise randomly decompressing from the damage, moving debris hitting itself all around, Vengeance pummeling her etc, all sorts of imparted momentum.
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Old August 26 2013, 12:27 AM   #1041
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

WTF is going on with artificial gravity then when in every Star Trek episode the crew are thrown all over the place by various jolts to the ship?

WTF is going on here:



Ship spiralling out of control leads to havoc & mayhem on the bridge of Voyager. Where was your evolved scientific reasoning then?!

The line must be drawn here.
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Old August 26 2013, 12:29 AM   #1042
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
Exactly!, the film has the Enterprise randomly decompressing from the damage, moving debris hitting itself all around, Vengeance pummeling her etc, all sorts of imparted momentum.
I suggest you read up on momentum, work, and impulse (google them), and then reconsider your argument.

Flake wrote: View Post
Where was your evolved scientific reasoning then?!

The line must be drawn here.

I didn't waste my time with that crap.
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Old August 26 2013, 12:29 AM   #1043
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Generations: The shockwave from the stardrive section explosion pushes the saucer into crashing into the planet. Same reason can be used from the massive explosion of mega-trops on the Vengeance.
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Old August 26 2013, 12:32 AM   #1044
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Generations: The shockwave from the stardrive section explosion pushes the saucer into crashing into the planet. Same reason can be used from the massive explosion of mega-trops on the Vengeance.
The damaged portion of the saucer is right into the impulse deck, maybe the engines can't fully disengage and are pushing slightly?
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Old August 26 2013, 12:34 AM   #1045
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Generations: The shockwave from the stardrive section explosion pushes the saucer into crashing into the planet. Same reason can be used from the massive explosion of mega-trops on the Vengeance.
The damaged portion of the saucer is right into the impulse deck, maybe the engines can't fully disengage and are pushing slightly?
Actually, I'd have to look. But if they're burning she's flying.
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Old August 26 2013, 12:34 AM   #1046
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Generations: The shockwave from the stardrive section explosion pushes the saucer into crashing into the planet. Same reason can be used from the massive explosion of mega-trops on the Vengeance.
One could argue that a warp core breach on a giant starship (huge matter-antimatter explosion) is orders or magnitude above several torpedoes detonating... and they'd probably be correct. The radiation pressure from the former would be much greater.

But in the end: Generations was shit writing. So there you go. I also hate Generations. Can you get off my back now?
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Old August 26 2013, 12:36 AM   #1047
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Generations: The shockwave from the stardrive section explosion pushes the saucer into crashing into the planet. Same reason can be used from the massive explosion of mega-trops on the Vengeance.
The damaged portion of the saucer is right into the impulse deck, maybe the engines can't fully disengage and are pushing slightly?
Actually, I'd have to look. But if they're burning she's flying.
They're fired up and fully red the entire time, her drive is online but badly damaged, it could be misfiring.
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Old August 26 2013, 12:39 AM   #1048
Flake
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
Exactly!, the film has the Enterprise randomly decompressing from the damage, moving debris hitting itself all around, Vengeance pummeling her etc, all sorts of imparted momentum.
I suggest you read up on momentum, work, and impulse (google them), and then reconsider your argument.

Flake wrote: View Post
Where was your evolved scientific reasoning then?!

The line must be drawn here.

I didn't waste my time with that crap.
Well therein lies the problem, I have no idea how much Star Trek you have seen but if it is just the reboot only then you are missing the point here. Star Trek is littered with such inaccuracies and has no problem ignoring science if it means a more entertaining episode/movie, its just explained away with technobabble - something mostly absent from STID.

Can't transport matter because of the heisenberg uncertainty principle? Easy! Just install a heisenberg compensator!
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Old August 26 2013, 12:39 AM   #1049
SeerSGB
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Chemahkuu wrote: View Post

The damaged portion of the saucer is right into the impulse deck, maybe the engines can't fully disengage and are pushing slightly?
Actually, I'd have to look. But if they're burning she's flying.
They're fired up and fully red the entire time, her drive is online but badly damaged, it could be misfiring.
Just watched: Yeppers, they're lit. So there's some pressure right there.

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Generations: The shockwave from the stardrive section explosion pushes the saucer into crashing into the planet. Same reason can be used from the massive explosion of mega-trops on the Vengeance.
One could argue that a warp core breach on a giant starship (huge matter-antimatter explosion) is orders or magnitude above several torpedoes detonating... and they'd probably be correct. The radiation pressure from the former would be much greater.

But in the end: Generations was shit writing. So there you go. I also hate Generations. Can you get off my back now?
So when you call "bullshit" on something that every other show and movie in the franchise is guilty off, we're just to let it pass without comment? So, at the least, STID is no worse than Generations.
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Old August 26 2013, 12:47 AM   #1050
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Flake wrote: View Post
Well therein lies the problem, I have no idea how much Star Trek you have seen but if it is just the reboot only then you are missing the point here.
I'm going to guess that I've been a fan probably for longer than you've been alive, through every incarnation of ST. I gave up on DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise through fatigue (and real life taking over). The episodes of TOS were at least written by competent sci-fi authors, and had a mild modicum of veracity.

The problem with ST09 and STiD is that they were written by hacks who had no understanding of simple science. I'm willing to forgive some of it in the interests of mindless entertainment (e.g. Lost), but I really expect a feature film to hire some science advisors.
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