RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,694
Posts: 5,213,603
Members: 24,208
Currently online: 738
Newest member: meshman63


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 28 2013, 10:50 PM   #406
OpenMaw
Commander
 
OpenMaw's Avatar
 
Location: Everett, Washington
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
My impression is that the Enterprise IS a light cruiser.
Is there any on screen evidence of that? Going strictly by the supposed crew complement, size relative to the other ships we saw in the squadron she was part of in XI, and her overall capabilities, she seems to fill the same role as she did in the prime universe. That of a full sized cruiser. Not the biggest ship around, but certainly by no measure a "small ship." She's definitely a capital ship.

As far as her being the flag ship, I think some fans have a hard time separating the notion of "flag ship" with "big ship" they're not mutually exclusive. A flag ship in this case would, I assume, be the vessel that would lead squadron's into battle, or carry out Star fleet's most important assignments.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Funny, that didn't seem to work all that well on Voyager.
Well, I mean, that comes down to the show simply not making use of what it had. Limited power, fuel, ammo, and crew could have all been used to far greater dramatic effect, but I digress. That's another topic for another place.
__________________
"Paradise protests too much." SFDebris
OpenMaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2013, 10:56 PM   #407
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

OpenMaw wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
My impression is that the Enterprise IS a light cruiser.
Is there any on screen evidence of that?
There isn't any at all. Zip.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2013, 11:17 PM   #408
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
No it wasn't. In fact, it's not even implied to be the most advanced in the fleet.
Pike says "newest flagship" and it didn't even get christened yet. That and the design, compared to the other ships, certainly implies it.

More to the point, even if it WAS the most powerful -- which TOS gives no indication whatsoever that this was even remotely the case -- that still doesn't imply "biggest."
No, but based on the evidence we have, it's more probable than not, in my opinion.

"Is probably the biggest" doesn't follow from that conclusion, since modernity and largeness are mutually exclusive.
Granted. My mistake.
__________________
And that's my opinion.

The Onmyouza Theatre: an unofficial international fanclub dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2013, 11:35 PM   #409
Gonzo
Lieutenant
 
Location: England
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

The Star Trek Fact Files that I collected as a kid say that the Enterprise NCC1701 in the original timeline was a Heavy Cruiser, as more advanced ships (Excelsior) were built it was then demoted to a Light Cruiser.

The class of a ship depends on many things such as its size, offensive armament and defensive capabilities compared to other ships of the same reality and time period.

So my guess is that the NuEnterprise is a Heavy Cruiser like before, at least until the Excelsior is properly introduced, the Kelvin was probably a light cruiser based on its reduced armament rather than its size.

I can probably scan the ship sheets from the fact files if anyone is interested. I've got the plans and everything.
Gonzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2013, 11:40 PM   #410
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Gonzo wrote: View Post
The Star Trek Fact Files that I collected as a kid say that the Enterprise NCC1701 in the original timeline was a Heavy Cruiser
Yeah, but this was never mentioned on screen. The closest we got is in TSFS when the Klingons call 1701 a Federation battle cruiser.
__________________
And that's my opinion.

The Onmyouza Theatre: an unofficial international fanclub dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2013, 11:41 PM   #411
Gonzo
Lieutenant
 
Location: England
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Belz... wrote: View Post
Gonzo wrote: View Post
The Star Trek Fact Files that I collected as a kid say that the Enterprise NCC1701 in the original timeline was a Heavy Cruiser
Yeah, but this was never mentioned on screen. The closest we got is in TSFS when the Klingons call 1701 a Federation battle cruiser.
True but the Fact Files are official and canon, and I see no reason to doubt it.

Edit: Memory Alpha also says the same.

Edit Edit: Memory Alpha also confirms the NuEnterprise as a Heavy Cruiser as well.
Gonzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2013, 11:49 PM   #412
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Gonzo wrote: View Post
True but the Fact Files are official and canon
Would you mind providing a citation for that ?
__________________
And that's my opinion.

The Onmyouza Theatre: an unofficial international fanclub dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 01:20 AM   #413
WarpFactorZ
Captain
 
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Belz... wrote: View Post
Gonzo wrote: View Post
The Star Trek Fact Files that I collected as a kid say that the Enterprise NCC1701 in the original timeline was a Heavy Cruiser
Yeah, but this was never mentioned on screen. The closest we got is in TSFS when the Klingons call 1701 a Federation battle cruiser.
Actually I think it was mentioned. In TSFS, when a lifeform is detected in Spock's cabin, the display says "Heavy Cruiser". See this pic:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...on_diagram.jpg
WarpFactorZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 01:30 AM   #414
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Good catch. I had forgotten that.
__________________
And that's my opinion.

The Onmyouza Theatre: an unofficial international fanclub dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 03:53 AM   #415
ATimson
Rear Admiral
 
ATimson's Avatar
 
Location: Andrew Timson
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

The Stig wrote: View Post
For me, it was the pursuit scene in the first movie where Sulu brings the Enterprise out of warp just within the atmosphere of Titan. The crew working together, the swelling music and the awe-inspiring sight of the Enterprise rising up out of cover, simply gorgeous. Even something as simple as the anti collision lights blinking just so said to me: "This is the best that the old girl has ever looked."
I really think it depends on the angle. As long as they don't show the side, emphasizing how far back the neck is mounted now, they're golden.
__________________
Andrew Timson
===============
"Niceness is the greatest human flaw, except for all the others." - Brendan Moody

"...don't mistake a few fans bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend." - Keith R.A. DeCandido
ATimson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 04:16 AM   #416
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

OpenMaw wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
My impression is that the Enterprise IS a light cruiser.
Is there any on screen evidence of that?
You're asking me for onscreen evidence that I got the impression the Enterprise was a light cruiser?

Going strictly by the supposed crew complement, size relative to the other ships we saw in the squadron she was part of in XI, and her overall capabilities, she seems to fill the same role as she did in the prime universe. That of a full sized cruiser.
Actually I thought the TOS ship was a light cruiser in the prime universe too and didn't become a "heavy" cruiser until the refit in TMP (heavier shields, increased torpedo and phaser armament, etc). Arguably, the refit at the end of STID might reflect the same up-classing, considering both its weapons and engines appear to have been upgraded.

Not the biggest ship around, but certainly by no measure a "small ship." She's definitely a capital ship.
So was USS Voyager (which, by the way, WAS the most modern ship in Starfleet at the time it was launched). Yet Voyager still wasn't quite as large as the Excelsior class ships that had been in service almost a hundred years earlier.

As far as her being the flag ship, I think some fans have a hard time separating the notion of "flag ship" with "big ship" they're not mutually exclusive. A flag ship in this case would, I assume, be the vessel that would lead squadron's into battle, or carry out Star fleet's most important assignments.
Either of which doesn't really imply bigness. Actually, I think in Starfleet terms the "flag ship" tends to be the FASTEST ship in the fleet (maybe precedent established by NX-01?).
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 04:19 AM   #417
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Belz... wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
No it wasn't. In fact, it's not even implied to be the most advanced in the fleet.
Pike says "newest flagship" and it didn't even get christened yet.
Not in TOS he doesn't.

No, but based on the evidence we have...
You mean the fact that every other starfleet ship the Enterprise ever encounters in all three seasons of TOS is EXACTLY the same size as the Enterprise?

That's not all that conclusive IMO.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 10:10 AM   #418
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Not in TOS he doesn't.
No, but again, it's implied that starships like the Enterprise are among the most powerful around. I don't remember which episodes.

You mean the fact that every other starfleet ship the Enterprise ever encounters in all three seasons of TOS is EXACTLY the same size as the Enterprise?
Right, because all of them are of the same class. Notice that none are bigger, either.
__________________
And that's my opinion.

The Onmyouza Theatre: an unofficial international fanclub dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 07:07 PM   #419
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Belz... wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Not in TOS he doesn't.
No, but again, it's implied that starships like the Enterprise are among the most powerful around.
They're implied to be very powerful. Nothing and no one suggests MOST powerful. The closest line we have is when Kirk tells Captain Christopher "There are only twelve like her in the fleet." Suffice to say, of the hundreds of other ships in the fleet that aren't constitution class, some are probably larger and some are probably smaller; some are probably more powerful and some are probably less.

I'll again remind you that the "rising tide" of fleet capabilities isn't a sure thing, as entire fleets do not uniformly become larger or more powerful over time. The U.S. Navy, for example, no longer fields anything as large or as powerful as an Iowa class battleship or even the guided-missile equivalent of the Atlanta class heavy cruisers. Even the larger Ticonderoga class cruisers are approaching retirement now, with the Navy preferring the "zerg rush" approach of filling the ocean with smaller, more cost-effective destroyers.

That could be the difference between the TOS and Abrams timeline. TOS could have seen the Constitution class with a run of at least twelve ships at a time; the Abrams timeline might favor larger and more powerful ships in which case Enterprise would only be one of five ships of a class.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29 2013, 07:28 PM   #420
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
They're implied to be very powerful. Nothing and no one suggests MOST powerful.
I said AMONG the most powerful, Eddie.

The closest line we have is when Kirk tells Captain Christopher "There are only twelve like her in the fleet."
Yeah, which kinda implies that they are pretty special.

Suffice to say, of the hundreds of other ships in the fleet that aren't constitution class, some are probably larger and some are probably smaller; some are probably more powerful and some are probably less.
Again, why do you think so ? There's precious little evidence in TOS or the movies, but the implication is that the Constitution is a special type of ship.
__________________
And that's my opinion.

The Onmyouza Theatre: an unofficial international fanclub dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
argument, size, starship

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:08 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.