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Old May 3 2013, 04:39 PM   #46
farmkid
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

scotpens wrote: View Post
Bisz wrote: View Post
farmkid wrote: View Post
A kid who grows up shooting and learning proper safety practices will be safe as an adult as well.
No.

A kid who plays with toys and not weapons of war will grow up to be a safe adult.
Please spare the hyperbole. A .22 caliber target rifle, like the ones we used at Scout camp, is not a weapon of war.

gturner
is right. For most kids, 12 is an age at which they can learn to shoot and handle a gun responsibly and safely. And all children should be taught what to do if they see an unsecured gun lying around: “Don’t touch, get away, tell an adult.”
It's all well and good to teach a kid to "Don’t touch, get away, tell an adult" until they actually come across a gun. Kids are curious; and most kids, especially those who have only been taught that guns are bad and stay away from them without ever having any experience with them, will want to explore at least a little if they come across a gun without an adult nearby. If my kid were to come across a gun, I would want them to have practical experience with one and know how to handle it safely. Furthermore, I would want them to have experience with a gun so that it would be something familiar and not some magical powerful item they've only seen on the TV and seems to scare their parents so that it would be less likely for their curiosity to override their good sense and parental teaching.

Locutus seems to agree with me regarding the nature of children.
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Although, there have been a couple of people in TNZ who have never raised children themselves who have been making wild claims about "well-mannered and well-educated children doing what they're told" and never playing around with loaded weapons left out in the open, which does put the onus for the accident on the five-year old child's shoulders rather than the grossly negligent parents. You wouldn't happen to know who one of those people were, would you, Data? But yes, I agree, we shouldn't shame the child by calling him not well-mannered and implying that he's an abnormal five-year-old because he did something he wasn't supposed to do like every child that's ever existed.
As for my own children, they have had their first opportunity to shoot at about 7 or 8 or so when we go shooting with either my family or my in-laws. It's a controlled environment with good safety practices demonstrated for them and they have hands-on training and close supervision. Because of this and because of how I've seen them handle guns, I don't have to cower in fear over the possibility they find a gun at a friend's house or somewhere else and end up killing someone. I only have to worry that their friends might not have the same skills and training if their friends' parents are scared of guns.
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Old May 3 2013, 05:40 PM   #47
iguana_tonante
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Yep, that's right.

A 5-year old kid shoots his sister because his gun nuts parents gave him a fucking functional rifle as a birthday present, and the problem is parents who don't have guns.

Right.
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Old May 3 2013, 05:43 PM   #48
Gaith
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Sephiroth wrote: View Post
Full Auto shooting is fun. [...] Recreational shooting is a legitimate hobby.
Not in many excellently evolved contemporary societies, it isn't.


farmkid wrote: View Post
I only have to worry that their friends might not have the same skills and training if their friends' parents are scared of guns.
You don't need any weapons training to be taught not to handle guns, and to get away and tell an adult if you ever see other children handling them without adult supervision. And there's certainly no need to snidely label all those who don't like guns as being "afraid" of them; it only makes you look bad.
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Old May 3 2013, 06:06 PM   #49
Locutus of Bored
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
It seems strange that Kinder Surprises (Kinder Eggs) are banned in the USA because they are considered dangerous and yet there are such things as children's guns.
Guns (unfortunately) have a much more powerful lobby than candy eggs with a toy inside.

People need to disavow themselves of the idea that everything happens uniformly in a country this big and this diverse with a dedication to individual and state autonomy. I'm sure the same people who advocated for banning candy eggs as a choking hazard would also not want kids to have access to guns. But they don't get to make all the laws. They can only pressure Congresspeople or state legislators to pass the laws they want, with varying degrees of success.

farmkid wrote: View Post
Locutus seems to agree with me regarding the nature of children.
I agree that kids like to test boundaries and do things they're not supposed to, but we have wildly different views on how to handle that natural tendency where it comes to guns.
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Old May 3 2013, 06:12 PM   #50
Tora Ziyal
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Melakon wrote: View Post
Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
I grew up playing cowboys and Indians in the 50's. What I remember totally breaking my little heart was never getting one of these.
Somewhere (but not in my belongings) is a photo of me at 4, with a Davy Crockett pistol, wearing a Davy Crockett shirt, Davy Crockett pants, a Davy Crockett hat, and holding a Davy Crockett balloon. I think they entered it in a contest and won a Davy Crockett book, though I was too young to read, and it was written for high school kids or something. We also had Bill Hayes' 45rpm record, which would be worth real money now.
Wow! I just had the Davy Crockett hat. But I also had a cowboy hat and a pistol in a red leather holster. And a tri-cornered hat from Colonial Williamsburg. All in addition to the expected dolls and tea sets and stuff.

Sorry, folks, back on topic...
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Old May 3 2013, 06:20 PM   #51
farmkid
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
farmkid wrote: View Post
Locutus seems to agree with me regarding the nature of children.
I agree that kids like to test boundaries and do things they're not supposed to, but we have wildly different views on how to handle that natural tendency where it comes to guns.
I didn't mean to imply you agreed on everything, only on the nature of children. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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Old May 3 2013, 06:23 PM   #52
farmkid
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Yep, that's right.

A 5-year old kid shoots his sister because his gun nuts parents gave him a fucking functional rifle as a birthday present, and the problem is parents who don't have guns.

Right.
That's not what I said; please don't put words in my mouth. If you bothered to read my first post it the thread you would find that I put the blame solely at the feet of the parents in this situation.

Gaith wrote: View Post
farmkid wrote: View Post
I only have to worry that their friends might not have the same skills and training if their friends' parents are scared of guns.
You don't need any weapons training to be taught not to handle guns, and to get away and tell an adult if you ever see other children handling them without adult supervision. And there's certainly no need to snidely label all those who don't like guns as being "afraid" of them; it only makes you look bad.
No, you don't need training to not handle guns. But kids are curious and often make poor decisions. A kid who has no experience with an item but instead is told to never touch it will more often than not be very curious about such an item if they come across it, regardless of what it is. Now, if that item is something that seems very powerful and even magical when they see it on TV, and their parents seem to be scared of it (why else would they say to never touch it, especially if they don't have one?) it will only enhance their curiosity. I you actually believe that just telling them not to touch it and go find an adult is going to work, you have little to no experience with children.
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Old May 3 2013, 06:46 PM   #53
scotpens
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Gaith wrote: View Post
Sephiroth wrote: View Post
Full Auto shooting is fun. [...] Recreational shooting is a legitimate hobby.
Not in many excellently evolved contemporary societies, it isn't.
Can you name some?
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Old May 3 2013, 07:30 PM   #54
farmkid
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Gaith wrote: View Post
Sephiroth wrote: View Post
Full Auto shooting is fun. [...] Recreational shooting is a legitimate hobby.
Not in many excellently evolved contemporary societies, it isn't.
Well then, I suppose we should stop playing football as well.
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Old May 3 2013, 07:39 PM   #55
Miss Chicken
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

It seems strange that Kinder Surprises (Kinder Eggs) are banned in the USA because they are considered dangerous and yet there are such things as children's guns.
Guns (unfortunately) have a much more powerful lobby than candy eggs with a toy inside.

People need to disavow themselves of the idea that everything happens uniformly in a country this big and this diverse with a dedication to individual and state autonomy. I'm sure the same people who advocated for banning candy eggs as a choking hazard would also not want kids to have access to guns. But they don't get to make all the laws. They can only pressure Congresspeople or state legislators to pass the laws they want, with varying degrees of success.
Your country is able to have a uniform law when when it comes to choking hazards so I don't think it should be impossible to pass a law prohibiting either the manufacture of children's guns or else a law setting an minimum age (maybe about 10 or 12) at which a child can use a gun.

In Australia guns control was a state issue, and we also have a powerful gun lobby, but we were able to reach agreement on banning certain guns. I admit we only have 6 states and 22 million people but the laws we reached agreement on were much stronger laws than just banning guns for small children.

You must have some federal laws that relate to the manufacture/importation of certain items (beyond a federal law that forbid eggs that contain toys).
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Old May 3 2013, 08:13 PM   #56
Locutus of Bored
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

farmkid wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
farmkid wrote: View Post
Locutus seems to agree with me regarding the nature of children.
I agree that kids like to test boundaries and do things they're not supposed to, but we have wildly different views on how to handle that natural tendency where it comes to guns.
I didn't mean to imply you agreed on everything, only on the nature of children. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
No worries. You didn't imply that. I was just adding my own clarification on where we differ.

Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
Your country is able to have a uniform law when when it comes to choking hazards so I don't think it should be impossible to pass a law prohibiting either the manufacture of children's guns or else a law setting an minimum age (maybe about 10 or 12) at which a child can use a gun.
Not impossible, but like I said, unfortunately extremely difficult when we have a disproportionately powerful NRA/gun lobby influencing politicians and making sure not even the most common sense and watered down gun laws get passed, because they irrationally see any gun law as one step further along the road to a total gun ban.

Also, there's no Constitutional amendment protecting toys that are a choking hazard, so it makes it a little more difficult to act where it comes to guns.

But that wasn't even my main point. My point was that people keep bringing up completely unconnected things like they're directly related and one should preclude the other. Jarod did it too in the other thread about the kid testing chemicals in school: "Why is she getting punished so harshly when kids are allowed to have guns?" Different situations, different people, different states, different laws, etc. I understand it's frustrating to see seemingly contradictory things happen, but there's not a nation on Earth that doesn't have contradictory policies and enforcement on different issues, especially not one this large and diverse in beliefs.

Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
In Australia guns control was a state issue, and we also have a powerful gun lobby, but we were able to reach agreement on banning certain guns. I admit we only have 6 states and 22 million people but the laws we reached agreement on were much stronger laws than just banning guns for small children.
That's great. We have people trying very hard to accomplish the same thing, and other people trying very hard to stop them. It doesn't all happen at the same pace everywhere. I wish it would.

But in the meantime, we have to deal with the reality of what's happening in the US now, and not just make off-base comparisons like "Well, you passed seat belt laws, so why can't you pass stricter gun laws?" that don't really address the nuances and history of the situation at all.
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Last edited by Locutus of Bored; May 3 2013 at 08:23 PM.
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Old May 3 2013, 08:49 PM   #57
JiNX-01
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Dream wrote: View Post
Parents should have gotten the dumb kid a water gun instead.
To paraphrase: The DUMB PARENTS should not have gotten him a gun AT ALL.
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Old May 3 2013, 09:06 PM   #58
Miss Chicken
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

I think it is hard for people to accept lax gun laws because if it is easy to protect children from one hazard than it should be just as easy to protect children from another hazard. That is why people compare gun hazards to choking hazards to pool hazards.

Yes, you have a powerful gun lobby but that is because your country allowed it to get so powerful and seem to be reluctant to take them on. It took a gun massacre 17 years ago for the average Australian to say enough is enough. I t wasn't Australia's first gun massacre but it was the final straw (mainly because it had such a high death toll, included children and happened in Tasmania).

It would seem to me that America's final straw might never come and I think that is tragic especially when Americans are so protective of their children in almost every other area.
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Old May 3 2013, 09:36 PM   #59
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
I just had the Davy Crockett hat. But I also had a cowboy hat and a pistol in a red leather holster. And a tri-cornered hat from Colonial Williamsburg.
*envisions TZ in Wild West gear like this*

*dies*



(for anyone who's reading this, yes, TZ and I do know each other. )

As for me, I did not have any cowboy gear when I was a kid although I did, in my college days, own an Australian cowboy hat. I think it rebelled against being put on my head.
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Old May 3 2013, 09:54 PM   #60
Tora Ziyal
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

^Where should we send the flowers?
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